[quote]PKS wrote:
CT, do you/can you incorporate a basic ramp to max working up to singles before your ‘work’ sets of doubles?
Eg:
Ramp to max: 80kgx6, 100x3,120x3, 140x2,150x2, 160x1,170x1,180x1,190x1,195x1,200x1,205kg x1
then
125kgs x10 sets of 2 for speed[/quote]
No it defeats the purpose when I said that “heavy deadlifting is hard on the nervous system”
[quote]domcib wrote:
@ct. in proportion to my other lifts, my “weakest link” are my legs. i’d like to try this with back squats, and/or front squats. i think it could help with the mobility, flexibility, strength issues, along with practicing proper form. what do you think?[/quote]
It’s not the same thing with front or back squats… I’d probably use 65-70% as a baseline but it can probably be done.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]PKS wrote:
CT, do you/can you incorporate a basic ramp to max working up to singles before your ‘work’ sets of doubles?
Eg:
Ramp to max: 80kgx6, 100x3,120x3, 140x2,150x2, 160x1,170x1,180x1,190x1,195x1,200x1,205kg x1
then
125kgs x10 sets of 2 for speed[/quote]
No it defeats the purpose when I said that “heavy deadlifting is hard on the nervous system”[/quote]
Thanks for clearing up my thinking on that. I’m so addicted to ramping to max that I was trying to find a way to keep it in there.
[quote]PKS wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]PKS wrote:
CT, do you/can you incorporate a basic ramp to max working up to singles before your ‘work’ sets of doubles?
Eg:
Ramp to max: 80kgx6, 100x3,120x3, 140x2,150x2, 160x1,170x1,180x1,190x1,195x1,200x1,205kg x1
then
125kgs x10 sets of 2 for speed[/quote]
No it defeats the purpose when I said that “heavy deadlifting is hard on the nervous system”[/quote]
Thanks for clearing up my thinking on that. I’m so addicted to ramping to max that I was trying to find a way to keep it in there.
[/quote]
NOBODY is more addicted to ramping to max than I am… it defines most of what I do… but in this case it would be VERY detrimental. And DO NOT decide to ramp to a 1RM per week (or after each 4 days cycle) either if you decide to use this approach with the deadlift… it will take you back.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[/quote]
Can you elaborate a bit more on this?
CT I don’t think you mentioned it or not,but are you using regular or more of a snatch grip for your dead’s.I’ve been using a wider grip,not full snatch though but I feel the work being done more In my traps,mid back etc.Also I’m able to start my pull In a better lower body position because of this.
[quote]jppage wrote:
CT I don’t think you mentioned it or not,but are you using regular or more of a snatch grip for your dead’s.I’ve been using a wider grip,not full snatch though but I feel the work being done more In my traps,mid back etc.Also I’m able to start my pull In a better lower body position because of this.[/quote]
I’m using the same grip that I use for my muscle snatches, which is between a clean and snatch grip. So you are on the right track. Since the weight is manageable, I also like to end each rep in a shrug (more like a low pull since I use the momentum of the deadlift)
CT: what’s you personal reasoning for going back to straight bar deadlifts rather than continue with the dead-squat bar deadlifts/launches?
Would it be because you’ve done x months with the dead-squat bar and reached a plateau so back to these 60% sub-maximal deadlifts?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]jppage wrote:
CT I don’t think you mentioned it or not,but are you using regular or more of a snatch grip for your dead’s.I’ve been using a wider grip,not full snatch though but I feel the work being done more In my traps,mid back etc.Also I’m able to start my pull In a better lower body position because of this.[/quote]
I’m using the same grip that I use for my muscle snatches, which is between a clean and snatch grip. So you are on the right track. Since the weight is manageable, I also like to end each rep in a shrug (more like a low pull since I use the momentum of the deadlift)[/quote]
Perfect thank’s CT.Great idea about the focusing on the shrug at the end,gonna try that as well tonight.
[quote]health4ni wrote:
CT: what’s you personal reasoning for going back to straight bar deadlifts rather than continue with the dead-squat bar deadlifts/launches?
Would it be because you’ve done x months with the dead-squat bar and reached a plateau so back to these 60% sub-maximal deadlifts?[/quote]
I wanted to improve the olympic lifts and the muscle snatch with a clean grip and I feel that a straight-bar deadlift has more transfer to those lifts. And the relatively low weight (and I drop the bar after every rep) prevents most of the negatives of the deadlifty.
Hi CT,
This post has re-ignited my love affair with the deadlift and I can’t wait to integrate it back into my program. I am currently following you 3,3,3,6,6,6 program with 2 push days 2 pull days and 1 leg day. My question is, how do I fit these deadlifts into my program. I am worry that placing them on my push days will mean dropping the strength capacity work inplace of deadlifts will mean I am not getting enough overall stimulus for my push day. Could you help with how I would integrate these please.
Many thanks
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
The deadlift is a double-edged sword; it can be a very powerful mass and strength builder, but it can also run down the nervous system and actually decrease your gains. So is it a movement you should focus on? And if so, how should you train it?
I’ll confess that I used to HATE the deadlift. First of all because I have the absolute worst body type for it (t-rex arms and long torso) because of that I never was able to perform to my standards on that exercise and it always hurt more than it built muscle. Another thing is that I didn’t really understand how to train it. I’m a heavy weight guy… meaning that I like to focus mostly on loads at 90% or more of my max when training the big lifts. I also like to train a movement fairly often to better be able to become technically efficient. The problem is that doing that on the deadlift ran me down bad… even decreasing my training load to 80% was very hard on me and negatively affected my other sessions.
FRIEND
The deadlift is potentially a good overall mass and strength builder. When done properly it hits the whole back structure as well as the glutes and hamstrings hard. However in reality it rarely provide the gains it should (see point no. in the “foe” category)
Because of the large amount of muscle involved it can positively affect body composition by increasing energy expenditure both during the workout and the recovery period
The deadlift puts the whole body under load which is highly transferable to sporting activities
FOE
To be a good mass builder, the deadlift has to be done in the best way to overload the muscles. Sadly by using a technique that doesn’t load the muscles optimally you can often lift more weight on that lift (e.g. the fishing rod pulling style). As a result the lower back does most of the work and the movement turns into a very poor mass builder. In fact, the deadlift is the movement where you have the most “people who don’t even look like they lift” turn out big numbers… Rarely will you see a guy bench pressing 315 while being below average looking, but I’ve seen my fair share of “coat racks” deadlifting 500lbs.
When done with poor technique, few movements are as traumatic as the deadlift. It can both cause injuries and overuse issues.
It’s the lift with the greatest “CNS cost” when done with near-maximal weights. It can take 10-14 days for the CNS to fully recover from a truly max effort pull. As such it is easy to overdo it and hurt several sessions afterwards.
SO WHAT TO DO?
In the past I went long periods without deadlifting, I was just bad at it, it never felt good, it hurt my other sessions and I never got much gains from it.
However recently I began using it again, and the style of lifting I use it with has led to good progressing in my look and capacity.
What did I do?
I lowered the load significantly
I increased frequency (to maximize technical efficiency)
I turned it into a strength-capacity challenge
Because of the light load, I was able to focus on the technique that gives me the best muscle loading (low hips start, arched back)
Here is the cycle I use… it is a 4 days cycle (so 4 days per week):
DAY 1. 60% of your max for 10 sets of 2 done as fast as possible
DAY 2. 60% of your max for 13 sets of 2 done as fast as possible
DAY 3: 60% of your max for 15 sets of 2 done as fast as possible
DAY 4. 60% + 40lbs for 10 sets of 1 done as fast as possible
Then restart the cycle with 20lbs more… so it would look like:
DAY 1. 60% of your max + 20lbs for 10 sets of 2 done as fast as possible
DAY 2. 60% of your max + 20lbs for 13 sets of 2 done as fast as possible
DAY 3: 60% of your max + 20lbs for 15 sets of 2 done as fast as possible
DAY 4. 60% + 60lbs for 10 sets of 1 done as fast as possible
You keep going until you start to have a form breakdown, this is normally after 3-4 cycles (some will extend it to 5-6) after that you stop deadlifting for a week, retest your max and start a new cycle.
The goal is to go as fast as possible (not during the set, but taking short rest periods between sets).
Good time targets are:
DAY 1. Under 3 minutes
DAY 2.Under 4 minutes
DAY 3. Under 6 minutes
Day 4: Under 2 minutes
Now, don’t panic if you don’t get these times right off the bat, the important thing is that you try to improve it from cycle to cycle. But NEVER sacrifice technique for a faster time.[/quote]
This fits with the following excerpt from a blog post by Pavel Tsatsouline…
Louie Simmons pointed out that heavy deadlifts take a lot more out of you than they give you. And Dan John observed that building strength with light â??grease the grooveâ?? type deads is like â??stealing.â?? Save the killer attitude for competitionâ??when you are ready for it. Meanwhile, practice.
hello CT thank you for the info on high pulls. awesome. my goal for the last year is to get rid of me neck this will make a huge difference.
@CT:
So, today was DAY 4 of the DL progression, 60% 1RM + 40lbs.
I started with high pulls from blocks, ramping SGHP, SGCP, SGLP then clusters at SGHP 90%, just 2 clusters, saving a bit for DL’s.
DL’s had an ‘easy’-ish feel, I think because of prior activation, GTG, from prior weeks volume.
Time wasn’t too bad but I want it to improve.
2:40 for the 10 singles. I think I could have gone a bit faster but was really shooting for perfect technique.
This is fun…so far…wait til next week :o
@CT:
Progress continues. Today was DAY 1 of WEEK 2. So, 60% 1RM + 20lbs, 10 x 2 reps as fast as possible.
I was very pleased with my time today, albeit more than your recommended ‘good’ level in original post.
I managed 3:50 for the 10 x 2. First week, as I was learning my capacity, it was a terrible 5:35; so, quite happy with progression.
This was after bench press pattern clusters as well.
I will rest tomorrow, then back at it Friday with high pulls from blocks then DAY 2 of DL progression.
I am actually liking the Oly shoes, clean grip, hips low start position. I have never done that before for progressive WO’s, a nice balance to the pull.
Thanks again!
Muts
How much of a difference between a strict clean deadlift and a stand up with the weight at all costs deadlift weightwise have you seen?
I tried maxing out on a clean deadlift only to reach 385, but with my PL form I’ve had 515.
[quote]Hull2012 wrote:
Hi CT,
This post has re-ignited my love affair with the deadlift and I can’t wait to integrate it back into my program. I am currently following you 3,3,3,6,6,6 program with 2 push days 2 pull days and 1 leg day. My question is, how do I fit these deadlifts into my program. I am worry that placing them on my push days will mean dropping the strength capacity work inplace of deadlifts will mean I am not getting enough overall stimulus for my push day. Could you help with how I would integrate these please.
Many thanks [/quote]
You need 4 days to be able to do the deadlift program… so if you have 2 pull days and 1 leg day per week you simply carryover the 4th deadlift day on the second week…
For example:
WEEK 1
Pull workout 1: 10 x 2 @ 60%
Leg workout: 13 x 2 @ 60%
Pull workout 2: 15 x 2 @ 60%
WEEK 2
Pull workout 1: 10 x 1 @ 60% + 40lbs
Leg workout: 10 x 2 @ 60% + 10lbs
Pull workout 2: 13 x 2 @ 60% + 10lbs
etc.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
How much of a difference between a strict clean deadlift and a stand up with the weight at all costs deadlift weightwise have you seen?
I tried maxing out on a clean deadlift only to reach 385, but with my PL form I’ve had 515. [/quote]
In most people 20-30%
I have a quick form question for anyone that wants to answer it, ha-ha.
I have started setting my hips lower and I find it MUCH better as far as working my hamstrings and not my lower back, but sometimes I find my hips rising too fast. Should I keep the weight lower so that this never happens, or is it just a technique thing because I am not used to deadlifting this way yet?
THANKS
[quote]Spock81 wrote:
I have a quick form question for anyone that wants to answer it, ha-ha.
I have started setting my hips lower and I find it MUCH better as far as working my hamstrings and not my lower back, but sometimes I find my hips rising too fast. Should I keep the weight lower so that this never happens, or is it just a technique thing because I am not used to deadlifting this way yet?
THANKS [/quote]
With the style of deadlifting I mentionned in this post, use a weight that allows you do avoid raising the hips too fast.