Chiropractors and My Quackometer

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43

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
I went to a chiropractor today for the first time ever and while the overall experience was neutral enough, a few times I got a feeling that reenforced my general distrust of chiropractors.

I am hesitant about chiropractic treatment and chiropractors largely because I have never known anyone to have “gone to a chiropractor”, everyone I know “goes to a chiropractor”. I know a lot of people that regularly go to chiropractors but they never seem to get any better, it is just an endless series of ‘adjustments’ and ‘treatment’, but not only do their symptoms stay the same (in the long term) but they also don’t appear to become any more knowledgeable about their issues.

The big thing that set off some red flags for me was this scanner they used on me called a Myovision somethingerother 6000. Some sort of electrical pulse sent through my spine, plugged into a windows based PC, data recorded, converted into pretty pictures that say my spine is fucked up, and then printed out for the doctor’s benefit.

They were very vague about the purpose of this machine, and I left feeling very unconfident about its validity. I did a quick google search or two, and found only colloquial talk of it, and much of it was negative.

So, does anyone here have experience with this scanner? is it legitimate? is it nonsense?

With regards to chiropractors in general. Do you go? have you gone? what would you recommend with regards to finding a good one, versus finding someone who is more interested in scheduling me for ‘adjustments’ forever.

I plan on going again, since the preliminary information gathering did not give them much to work off, but they took x-rays and did that weird scan, wrote down notes and etc. If, upon my next visit, the doctor does not show himself to be knowledgeable and worthwhile, I will stop going.

[/quote]

I had the same experience with a chiropractor. They are not in to fixing the problem now. They set you up on a schedule of regular visits. It did nothing to fix my problem.

I went to a D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine), he evaluated me, discovered that one leg was longer than the other which was caused by my pelvis being out of joint (hard to explain). He cracked me out several times (very painful) and actually fixed the problem in one visit. That was about 6 years ago and I’ve had no problems since.

If there is a D.O. in the area, give him/her a try.

44

A close friend of mine fucked up his back BIG TIME last year. I can’t remember exactly how many disks he herniated/ruptured, but I think it was 4 or 5. He was in serious pain and they wanted to operate on him asap. Insted he went to a chiro a few times a week for a month or two and was able to rehab the problem with out surgery.

45

I have nothing but good things to say about my chiro. I sustained a lower back injury deadlifting a few years ago from which I never fully healed. My back was okay if I didn’t do anything but whenever I tried to lift any decent weights it’d give me trouble.

I tried various different physical therapies which made no difference - their basic advice for me was to not squat so heavy or deep. A friend referred me to his chiro and he’s worked wonders. My chiro has represented his country at the Olympics and he treats athletes so he understands where I’m coming from - when I explained my performance goals to him he told me he’d get me there… and he did.

As well as adjustments he also does ART. I’m lifting again and completely pain free. I have a check up once a month just to make sure everything is okay - the body is dynamic and I partake in a lot of physical activity so it makes sense to me to have regular check ups. I’m sure there are lots of quacks out there, like in most professions, but there are also some very good chiros.

46

I am a physical therapist and i have to say there are a lot of shitty therapists out there. It is an embarassing to the PT profession. I also went through 2 years of additional training for manipulation.

One of the leaders in orthopedic manual therapy actually had chiro. and osteopathic training. However, I feel that Chiro can set people up for need to “get adjustments” for the rest of that clients lift. I guess in every field there are good and bad. I try to teach all my patients self care and preventative actions.

47

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Anyone else have any thoughts on Columbu’s point?[/quote]

I’ve seen two chiros in my life. The first one took x-rays and wasn’t very good. (Not quack level, but not good.) My current guy a god. His ART is sick. He uses diagnostics only. He doesn’t even have an X-Ray machine at the office. “Move your arm this way, then this way. Okay, here’s the problem…”

48

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
The chiros who let you come in only when you have a problem and don’t require ongoing treatment (the ethical kind) do exist, but they are few and far between and will probably need to close their practices. [/quote]

I joked with mine, “Dude, you gotta stop healing me. You’ll go out of business.” He got serious for a second and replied: “We heal people and rely on you for referrals. That’s our business model.”

I’ve referred three people to him. He healed/fixed/repaired all of them. Hopefully those people also refer three people to him.

49

My wife used to see a chiro, and I went with her for one appointment.

This used a hand-held deivce that was wired to a PC. When pressed against the back, two bumps on the end of the device would pulsate against the patient’s spine about 5/6 times a second. The chiro explained that this deivce both measured the position of the vertibra, and pushed it into position if the position was incorrect. A graph on the PC showed real time if the vertibra was in the right position or not.

The chiro claimed that this was more precise than the traditional chiropractic practice of feeling the patient’s spine for out-of-place vertibra and pushing them back with his hands.

But this device is HAND HELD. Since the pressure applied by the hand and arm holding the device cannot be constant or consistant from one practitionor to another, the precision of the messurement and pressure applied by the device cannot be consistant. The chiro could not explain this to my satisfaction.

This triggered by “quackmeter.”

51

I have to say only 2 out of 10 chiropractors are worthy. It helps to find ones that are educated in nsca, defenitley ART, make sure they are not just a rack em crack um stack em business. It helps if they start you out with deep tissue, focus on myofacial release before alignment, and directly point out to you the root causes of what your feeling.

Its not a matter of quackery but a matter of you inability to research outside of the yellow pages!
IF you are a long term weight trainer there is no such thing as not having muscle adhesions. Thats like saying a massage is quackery. Wrong , more like your massuese was un skilled.

Look at the active release website, and find a level III instructor certified in everything. You’ll be surprised the difference.

52

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I really don’t know anything about chiropractic. My only comment is that Franco Columbu, a chiropractor as well as of course a bodybuilder and powerlifter, wrote that any chiropractor who ordinarily requires an X-ray of every patient is, from that alone, sure to be a quack. The skilled practitioner, he said, ordinarily needed only physical examination / palpation.

Interesting and convenient diagnostic criterion if true.

It was accurate for the one time I went to a chiropractor. A quack, and insisted on X-rays. However one case hardly proves it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on Columbu’s point?[/quote]

I like Columbo but his stance is dangerously misleading.

Regulated health care professionals like medical doctors and chiropractors are required by law to meet the “standard of care” for each condition they evaluate and treat. If the doctor fails to meet this “standard of care” and a poor patient outcome results the doctor can be found liable. In most states the “standard of care” for skeletal conditions involves the use of radiological diagnostic procedures (x-ray, CT, MRI, etc)

If you go to an emergency room or your family doctor for neck pain subsequent to a low speed rear end collision or ankle pain due to a fall in your back yard you are going to receive x-rays to rule out fracture. That is the accepted “standard of care”.

If you enter a chiropractor’s office for back/neck pain and your case history reveals even the slightest chance that injury (new or old) was a factor the area of complaint should be viewed radiographically to rule out the possibility of fracture and/or advanced spondylosis that may complicate your treatment. This is the “standard of care” in most states.

If a chiropractor opts against x-rays and treatment results in injury to the patient due to an undiscovered underlying condition the patient can seek retribution. If it is determined that the chiropractor did not meet the “standard of care” he/she will be found guilt of malpractice and Franco Columbo’s opinion won’t matter one bit.

Also, keep in mind that patients sometimes lie, forget or just don’t know about their old injuries. Several years ago a friend of my brother was evaluating an elderly gentleman for neck pain. The chiropractor was concerned about an odd looking old pockmark scar on the man’s neck but the patient could not relate it to any injury.

As a result the chiropractor insisted on an x-ray even though the patient did not want to pay for it. The chiropractor took the film and found a bullet lodged in the man’s cervical spine. When he confronted the patient the man suddenly recalled being shot in the neck by a small caliber pistol as a small child.

The bullet was not removed because surgical techniques weren’t sophisticated enough at that time and he never suffered any paralysis so it was left alone.

In that case, the x-ray probably saved the patient’s life and the chiropractor’s career.

If a new patient goes to a chiropractor’s office for a spinal problem and the chiropractor doesn’t insist on x-raying the area of complaint then you tell him/her to have a nice day and run, don’t walk, to the nearest exit.

53

Here we go again, as in any field there are good and bad or quacks and effectives. If you went to a “real Doctor” as you anti chiro douche bags call them and he prescribed the wrong medication(one of the leading causes of death in the U.S. last year) would you go back, find another Doc or just eschew the entire medical field?..Moron! Mike the Bear please wiegh in…Dr. Tim Ryan, Paging Dr. Ryan

54

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Subluxations do not exist. There is no such medical condition. Period.[/quote]

Dorland’s Illustrated Medical Dictionary is probably a higher authority on this than you are.

Subluxation - incomplete or partial dislocation of a joint or organ.

In all fairness you probably meant to refer to the old chiropractic subluxation. Guess what? Only about 30% of the chiropractic field still believes that theory. The ones that do believe in it are laughingly referred to as “horse and buggy” chiropractors by the rest of the profession.

Define “temporary”. Do you mean a few hours or days or weeks or months? A short course of spinal manipulative therapy typically results in months of pain relief even for chronic spinal conditions. The outcomes are even better for patients who engage in active rehab therapies.

Actually it takes about two years to learn the art of spinal manipulation. Anyone who would let a person with one month of training try and manipulate their spine is FUCKING STUPID.

[quote]
If you actually have an injury and need therapy, go to a PT. The whole marketing schtick about chiros having equal or better education than doctors is bullshit. What you need to focus on is quality, not quantity. Although the subject matter may the same as that taught in M.D. school, the courses are dumbed down for the chiros. To get into medical school you need around a 3.7 GPA, a good score on the MCAT, and you need to go through an interview. To get into most PT programs you need at least a 3.0 GPA, and some type of standardized test, usually the GRE. To get into chiro school, you only need a 2.5 GPA, no MCAT or standardized test of any kind, and according to the Web site, most schools will take you without a face-to-face interview and without a criminal background check. And once you’re in chiro school, the goal is to make sure that you pass your classes and stay in. Why? Because if the school loses a student, it loses that studen’ts tuition, and they need as many suckers as they can get to stay open.[/quote]

Nice story but a little misleading.

I haven’t heard anyone say that a chiropractor has a better education than a medical doctor. However, the first two years of medical and chiropractic school are similar because both professions work on the human body. No cigar smoking guys in trench coats got together one night and decided to make medical doctors seem smart by requiring a 3.7GPA while making chiropractors seem dumb with a 2.5GPA requirement. The differing entrance requirements are purely a reflection of market economics. There are far more applicants than available medical school slots. GPA’s and MCATS are used as tools to determine who gets into school. The number of chiropractic school slots is roughly equivalent to the number of applicants so there are no market forces driving the entrance requirements higher. If the profession matures that requirement will likely trend upward.

Incidentally, both medical and chiropractic academics are accredited by the same governing bodies so it is impossible to “dumb down” one in favor of the other. If a chiropractic school loses its accreditation it also loses the right to government-supported student loan programs so it makes no sense to “dumb down” to keep the “suckers” enrolled. Professional level education is so expensive that few medical or chiropractic schools could survive without student loan programs.

Actually, Medicare is trying to reduce reimbursement across the board for all types of practitioners. Medicare is not singling out the chiropractic profession.

Several studies have concluded that treatment for low back pain will cost $13,000 with surgical treatment, $7,000 with non-surgical medical treatment and $800 with chiropractic treatment.
Guess which treatments the insurers prefer? Yes, they prefer the surgical and non-surgical medical treatments over conservative treatment performed by a chiropractor.

Why is this? Because private health insurers make profits by charging higher premiums and that comes from higher health care costs.

55

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Malevolence,

I suppose anyone can have a bad experience by going to a not so good Chiropractor. But, I have a distrust of medical doctors. Maybe you’ve had one negative experience who knows?

But millions of us have had many negative experiences visiting the typical MD.

1-They talk at you and not with you. And of course you rarely get a chance to talk.

2-They usually prescribe meds for things that ice, hot packs, vitamins, herbs, massage and other more natural cures would work fine. Oh that’s right they don’t believe in anything but meds…silly me.

3-They have an aloof attitude which screams "I’m very, very smart and you…well you don’t even know your own body as well as I do.

4-They usually keep people waiting for up to an hour in their precious waiting room. But it’s okay because my time isn’t worth anything anyway and their time…well it’s quite valuable.

5-Most of them have a lock on the towns that they are in. And feel no need to improve in any way. And if you point out a problem with their service or approach they are more than happy to show you the door.

Okay, I’m done. Maybe it’s just me that has had experiences like this with medical doctors.

But for my money I’ll spend time seeking the advice of a Chiropractor, a massage therapist, a nutritionist and many other “alternative” sources than seek out the typical ego driven asshole MD.

They make me want to puke![/quote]

Well said Mick and I will add (again) that my own Physician in Las Vegas and a “real” Dr.a very busy and highy sought after internal medicine specialist routinely aks me if I have consulted with my chiropractor if I come to him with any musculo-skeletal problems and has said in so many words"people think that we doctors know everything,most of the time we are guessing,we prescribe a drug and hope it works ,if it doesn’t we try something else"…

hmmm Oh did I forget to mention this “Real Doctor” routinely sees a chiro. Or there is my Dr. in St Louis who generaly spends on average 5 minutes with me and his first question is invariably"what prescription do we need today? Rack crack and stack em indeed!

56

[quote]DM246 wrote:
MikeTheBear wrote:
Subluxations do not exist. There is no such medical condition. Period.

Dorland’s Illustrated Medical Dictionary is probably a higher authority on this than you are.

Hey DM don’t bother mike the bear is an expert on all things (anti) chiro. He is a master at puking back quotes from quackwatch,that is where he got that little tid bit of misinformation after all. His big time dream was to be on the asshole who runs quackwatch’s witch hunt website, or maybe that has changed since his little buddy on quackwatch has come under some scrutiny of his own.

58

jb, people like that demonstrate intellectual laziness by citing the Stephen Barrett mantra. Of course, that makes them ill-equipped to respond to facts.

Normally, I don’t waste time with Barrett disciples one on one. Most of them reached their academic potential in the 5th grade so a debate requiring multi-syllable words becomes an exercise in futility because of their limited comprehension. However, public forums require a response because others can be unduly influenced by Barrett’s BS.

Honestly, I don’t care if Mike the Bear ever changes his viewpoint towards the chiropractic profession. One person’s ill-conceived opinion does not change fact any more than not believing in gravity will keep one from plunging to a gruesome death after walking off a 20-story building.

On a personal level, I would have no problem with Barrett if he confined his criticism to the small (but very vocal) segment of the profession that demonstrates a disdain for science.

Instead, Barrett and his followers ignore the fact that most practitioners are learned professionals who work hard to stay abreast of research findings and evidence-based treatment protocols.

The bottom line is that it is really our fault that the Barretts of this world even have a point to argue. Until the science-based majority grows some balls and insists on the establishment of realistic treatment guidelines and compliance requirements we will remain a mass of individuals fighting our own personal battles for professional respect.

The medical profession matured by marginalizing their wackos. We need to do the same.

59

I just had my follow-up appointment. I was shown my x-rays and the doctor gave me his run-down of treatment options and opinions.

The style of chiropractic he endorses is “pettibone”, I asked for his opinion on ART, and he was mostly positive of it, but he stated he doesn’t see it as being as effective as his method.

To be honest, my confidence in this office was improved a little, but I still want to show my x-rays to another chiropractor(preferably not one that he recommends ) and get more input.

As it stands, my right hip is apparently higher than my left hip, and my neck is too straight, where apparently, necks are supposed to curve. Additionally my lower back is slightly bent as a result of the hip differential.

He talked about how corrective treatment would take about 9 weeks, 4 times a week. Which is not too bad. He did not seem to be trying to get me in there indefinitely.

Anyone have any more input on pettibone technique, corrective treatment, and the likes.

Also, x-rays, I am not too comfortable having my x-ray taken too much, anyone have some input there?