T Nation

Chiropractors and My Quackometer

I went to a chiropractor today for the first time ever and while the overall experience was neutral enough, a few times I got a feeling that reenforced my general distrust of chiropractors.

I am hesitant about chiropractic treatment and chiropractors largely because I have never known anyone to have “gone to a chiropractor”, everyone I know “goes to a chiropractor”. I know a lot of people that regularly go to chiropractors but they never seem to get any better, it is just an endless series of ‘adjustments’ and ‘treatment’, but not only do their symptoms stay the same (in the long term) but they also don’t appear to become any more knowledgeable about their issues.

The big thing that set off some red flags for me was this scanner they used on me called a Myovision somethingerother 6000. Some sort of electrical pulse sent through my spine, plugged into a windows based PC, data recorded, converted into pretty pictures that say my spine is fucked up, and then printed out for the doctor’s benefit.

They were very vague about the purpose of this machine, and I left feeling very unconfident about its validity. I did a quick google search or two, and found only colloquial talk of it, and much of it was negative.

So, does anyone here have experience with this scanner? is it legitimate? is it nonsense?

With regards to chiropractors in general. Do you go? have you gone? what would you recommend with regards to finding a good one, versus finding someone who is more interested in scheduling me for ‘adjustments’ forever.

I plan on going again, since the preliminary information gathering did not give them much to work off, but they took x-rays and did that weird scan, wrote down notes and etc. If, upon my next visit, the doctor does not show himself to be knowledgeable and worthwhile, I will stop going.

I went for about 3 weeks at the start of this semester and had bad experiences. This guy was dressed in late night informercial clothes and had the cheesiest schtick that he played on everyone.

He had little models on his desk of spines wit red lights, and he pressed a button, lights turned green and he said that will be my spine with “care”.

He uses “The activator” which is like a spring loaded testtube stopper that hits with little to no force, so I cant see it doing anything.

He said I needed care 3 times a week, and the appointments were only 3-5 minutes long, and cost $30.

He used phrases like “turn the power on” and said he could cure everything from digestive tract problems to ADAH.

Took xrays which I showed to some kinesiology students. They said everything was fine. He said I was in terrible allignment and didn’t want me living with it anymore. He actually got pretty emotional.

So ya, I ain’t going back.

I like mine. I don’t go anymore. Don’t really need to. She’d still like me to go once a month for up keep, but I don’t have the time. I find the time when I’m hurting.

If you get the quack vibe from your chiropractor, perhaps you should try a new one. Don’t writing off an entire field by one of there representatives. It worked for me, hope it works for you.

Mine does ART on me. He fixes me. Then I injure something else. He fixes that, and then I injure something else. Etc.

He helps me prevent re-injuring myself by doing ART and also showing me what went wrong and how I can prevent it from going wrong again.

I have referred three people to him for treatment for TMJ. All three people were told they’d have a lifetime of pain. All 3 were fixed after 3-5 sessions with my guy.

Find a new chiropractor. Personally, I would not see one who did not do ART.

I send clients to one local chiro and he knows how we train and loves what we do (squat, press deadlift etc.). You can go to him once, twice or a hundred times, it’s completely up to the patient. There’s no weekly program ($$$) to get on or any of that seedy stuff that gives good people bad names.

Best part is that the patients come out feeling much better than going in, even with just one treatment. And if after a missed snatch or clean, they need to go back, it’s just one time, not multiple sessions.

Another client went to a different local chiro and he gave him the runaround, told him he must come three times per week for a month and once per week- for the rest of his life, I suppose.

He also gave hima multi-page brochure for this high-tech procedure that’ll only cost (a shitload) a little more per week.

I had him bring it to me and the “brochure” had the exact same font, layout and sensational verbage as Matt Furey’s and Brooks Kubiks websites. Very hokey indeed.

http://mattfurey.com/

http://brookskubik.com/dinosaur_bodyweight_training.html

I am not writing off the entire profession outright, but I am skeptical.

The Myovision thing for instance. That just seems weird to me. Does anyone know anything about that?

I would like to find a chiropractor who is also a bodybuider, or otherwise is ‘in the know’ so to speak with weight training and the likes. Not a guy with some misc. degree who treats kids and old people.

[quote]Diablo9845 wrote:
Took xrays which I showed to some kinesiology students. They said everything was fine. He said I was in terrible allignment and didn’t want me living with it anymore. He actually got pretty emotional.

So ya, I ain’t going back. [/quote]

This is what I suspect will happen with me. Funny enough, after I went, I mentioned to a friend of mine that I had gone to a chiropractor and she said “you? but you have some of the best posture I have ever seen!”

I have never felt nagging issues with my back in my life, until just recently where I have started to have a localized twinge in my lower back. I thought it might be caused by deadlifting, but it also might be sleep posture, or anything else really. I figured the chiropractor might be able to give me a run down of what’s up.

we’ll see.

[quote]derek wrote:
I send clients to one local chiro and he knows how we train and loves what we do (squat, press deadlift etc.). You can go to him once, twice or a hundred times, it’s completely up to the patient. There’s no weekly program ($$$) to get on or any of that seedy stuff that gives good people bad names.

Best part is that the patients come out feeling much better than going in, even with just one treatment. And if after a missed snatch or clean, they need to go back, it’s just one time, not multiple sessions.

Another client went to a different local chiro and he gave him the runaround, told him he must come three times per week for a month and once per week- for the rest of his life, I suppose.

He also gave hima multi-page brochure for this high-tech procedure that’ll only cost (a shitload) a little more per week.

I had him bring it to me and the “brochure” had the exact same font, layout and sensational verbage as Matt Furey’s and Brooks Kubiks websites. Very hokey indeed.

http://mattfurey.com/

http://brookskubik.com/dinosaur_bodyweight_training.html[/quote]

That layout seems to be pretty standard anymore. Every strenght coach selling something has that kind of page…very annoying if you ask me.

But, damn, Kubik really lost his fuckin mind. Dinosaur traning…so good, yet so shitty as well.

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
I am not writing off the entire profession outright, but I am skeptical.[/quote]

Sorry, one of my greatest weakness in posting is to address multiple posts in one comment. I was hoping Diablo9845 would not write off the field, and you both try it again with a different chiropractor. I do think you are right to be skeptical.

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
I plan on going again, since the preliminary information gathering did not give them much to work off, but they took x-rays and did that weird scan, wrote down notes and etc. If, upon my next visit, the doctor does not show himself to be knowledgeable and worthwhile, I will stop going.

[/quote]

I have had both good and bad experiences. However, the bad was enough to end my visits permanently. I haven’t been to chiro in at least 8 months and while I still have upper back issues, I am convinced that I can work through the problems with massage and proper training.

Ultimately, I just thought it was wrong to target the symptom rather than the underlying problem. I asked myself, are these adjustments healing me? In other words, if I have muscle imbalances or tightness, then why would adjusting my bones have any lasting effect? In my opinion, it becomes an on-going treatment with no end in sight.

It didn’t help matters that the chiropractor ALWAYS wanted me to book another appt and even now, his staff calls me once a month or so to see what time I can come in. I get immense satisfaction in telling them that I feel GREAT.

I know some people swear by the treatments but I am done with that crap.

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
I am not writing off the entire profession outright, but I am skeptical.

The Myovision thing for instance. That just seems weird to me. Does anyone know anything about that?

I would like to find a chiropractor who is also a bodybuider, or otherwise is ‘in the know’ so to speak with weight training and the likes. Not a guy with some misc. degree who treats kids and old people.

[/quote]

Not sure of the myovision, but I have been treated with something that sounds similar. It was like a very small impulse driver.(low amplitude, high frequency concussion device type of deal)

The one used on me worked very well to realign a vertebra that was obviously out of place and causing some serious problems. The treatment provider is an Md of anasthesiology, cscs, ART instructor level, and a few other medical certs, with a good deal of experience working with internationaly competative strength and speed atheletes.

Not too many like him around though. Three sessions and a couple of ART treatments, and it’s been good to go for about a year.

I’ve had mixed results.

I’ve had bulging discs since I was 15yrs old. Been through alot of treatments, no surgery though.

My discs flared up recently from sitting on my butt at a desk job for years and not exercising enough. Went to a chiropractor who had the words “Applied Kinesiology” next to his title. Figured it meant just that, he would apply kinesiology in his treatment.

nope

total BS
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/ak.html

Apparently unscrupulous chiropractors supplement their treatments with this to try and make more money.

After my back didn’t get better (3 visits) he offered nutritional counseling, which would have involved me holding vials of substances while he pressed down on my arm to determine if holding say, wheat, would make me weaker.
No thanks.

I could go on and on but that link will suffice.

There has been other chiros I went to in the past that weren’t so flaky. Their treatments helped but didn’t do much to correct the imbalances that were making my discs angry in the first place.

I ended up going to a real dr, who gave me prednisone, which brought the swelling discs down in a day. Took that for 5 days, then went to phsyical therapy. After I got the mobility back my therapist put me on a regimen of deadlifts and front squats and other good stuff, w/ light weights though, form is everything to me right now.

[quote]I ended up going to a real dr, who gave me prednisone, which brought the swelling discs down in a day. Took that for 5 days, then went to phsyical therapy. After I got the mobility back my therapist put me on a regimen of deadlifts and front squats and other good stuff, w/ light weights though, form is everything to me right now.

[/quote]

This is what I like to hear. Mobility training/therapy seems to be so much more productive than resting, but I know very little about physical therapy(something I would like to change!!). Perhaps before my next chiropractor visit, I will consult with a physical therapist and see what they have to say.

The chiropractor I went to (once) used that Myovision device on me. He said it measured muscle activity on either side of each vertebrae. Excessive activity meant that the vertebrae was out of allignment, and the muscle was compensating. Smile and nod. He then tried to sign me up for $800 worth of twice-a-week, 5 minute sessions. No thanks.

I’m a personal trainer who has done thousands of hours of on his own research over the past 5 years, and I’m also married to the office manager of a chiropractic clinic. On top of that, I am a professional wrestler, and have incurred many, many injuries. I feel to be more than qualified to talk about this subject, and if anyone cares, this is my opinion on chiropractic.

A) If someone just ‘feels around’ and goes for an adjustment, tell them no thanks, and run. An Xray is needed. When I was youngr, and didn’t realize this, I let a chiro at a wrestling show that was hired by the promoter adjust me. He almost tore my shoulder out of the socket, and I was in pain for months. If they tell you no tests or Xrays specifically are needed, they’re idiots. Go somewhere else.

B) I have no history whatsoever with the electro adjuster gimmicks, but I have heard a lot of bad about them from chiro’s that we’re trained at Palmer, which is the Chiro institute founded by the originator of chiropractic. Take that for what you will, but I don’t know how much I would trust them.

C) As far as the muscle/bone issue, I agree totally. I’d say people would get at least 100% better results from a chiro w/ a good training program suited for their needs than they would by chiro alone. Chiro’s will say the bones stay where they should through consistent adjustment, and to a large extent, I believe that. How many people who go to them are like us? Not many, and most of them think I’m a jackass for what I do to my body. However, they also all agree that my gym work has helped my body to a large extent. What I do in the gym helps unfuck what I’ve done in the ring.

D) They help unfuck it the rest of the way. And this is where the chiro comes in real handy. I don’t knowq what your body, training or chiropractor is like, but mine adjusts what I tell her is wrong. Having a large base of knowledge on the human body does not hurt a bit. I go in now, tell them what’s hurting, they know what to check, adjust, and a few hours later and I can train with all out intensity on anything. Before my adjustments, I couldn’t even move my arms at times. Again, this is a balance of being smart on training/knowing your body/knowing your chiro/knowing what to tell them.

E) Chiropractors are like trainers…Tons of bad, some good. Some people walk into the gym fresh off, never been in a gym and expect me to give them a program to get them ‘jacked, cut and feeling better’ in one hour. Doesn’t fucking happen, not possible. Same with chiropractors. Will some try to milk you? Yes, totally. Will the good ones help tremendously? Same answer.

In the end, my best advice is to know your body, know your training principles, know your chiro’s training, know how to do self myofascial release or get massage too, balance your body out with yor training, and use the chiro to fix up what that can’t. And you can’t fix a lot of it.

If your shoulder’s hanging half out of the socket, doing endless rear delt/rotator cuff/lower trap work ain’t gunna help a fucking thing. Howevr, if your chiro has to constantly adjust the thoracic region with terrible ‘cracking’ noises, etc, maybe you should lay off the heavy bench and strengthen your rows for half a year. Success doesn’t come in a day, and neither does a healthy body if you push it to the limits on a regular basis.

I got nuthin else…

Kubo

Well, if it can be treated by a physical therapist, I would go to one.

They are a lot more apt at helping you fix imbalances, help injuries recover, and preventing injuries.

They go at least 6 years of school for it, some 7(like my program). Then they need to get nationally certified. A lot more credentials than any chiropractor.

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
They were very vague about the purpose of this machine, and I left feeling very unconfident about its validity. I did a quick google search or two, and found only colloquial talk of it, and much of it was negative.[/quote]

The manufacturer’s website is here:

I don’t see model 6000 on the website, but they describe the 8000 in detail. It’s an EMG machine. That means the machine is only a measuring device. It measures the amount of electrical activity on your skin in various places. The electricity is caused by muscle contractions under the skin. The idea is that by comparing the amount of electricity at different spots, the machine can show that certain muscles are contracting more than others. If the muscles at one spot along your spine are contracting a lot more than muscles in other spots, then presumably you have some kind of postural problem or spasm or something of the sort that can be treated.

An EMG machine is a real machine that really measures electrical activity of muscles. However that doesn’t mean that it has any therapeutic benefit when used in this way. If you read the material on the manufacturer’s website, you’ll notice that they emphasize how much money it can earn for the buyer of the machine in terms of winning lawsuits and convincing people to become patients. I don’t see much there about cures or rehab.

Personally, if it were me, I would run away from this sort of thing. The only chiropractic treatment that I would consider getting is ART. But that’s just me.

You don’t say what problem you have that brought you to the chiropractor in the first place. I won’t ask because it’s none of my business. But if it were me, I would ask myself, “What other sorts of treatments are available for my complaint?”

Here are some of the professionals I would consult before I even thought of going near a Myovision-equipped office:

Mobility coach
Yoga instructor
Orthopedic surgeon
Physiatrist
etc.

Sounds like a good idea.

Chiropractors are not quacks. I have had several injuries to my back over the years and all of them were treated with success by a chiropractor.

Everytime I came back from a session, I felt relaxed, energized and would sleep better.

People who hang onto the myth that they are quacks are generally the sedentary members of the population who believe that exercise is bad and you simply need to eat vegetables to be healthy. It is an outdated view, and rightfully so.

The human body is not static; it is in a continual process of change. A chiropractors adjustments are really no different than the ones we make ourselves in the gym everytime we train. We give the body a slight stressfull change and it revitalizes it.

A doctor will either give you pain meds (not healthy) or will operate.

If you have any back trouble, I would first consult a chiropractor.

[quote]FreddieY wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
They were very vague about the purpose of this machine, and I left feeling very unconfident about its validity. I did a quick google search or two, and found only colloquial talk of it, and much of it was negative.

The manufacturer’s website is here:

I don’t see model 6000 on the website, but they describe the 8000 in detail. It’s an EMG machine. That means the machine is only a measuring device. It measures the amount of electrical activity on your skin in various places. The electricity is caused by muscle contractions under the skin. The idea is that by comparing the amount of electricity at different spots, the machine can show that certain muscles are contracting more than others. If the muscles at one spot along your spine are contracting a lot more than muscles in other spots, then presumably you have some kind of postural problem or spasm or something of the sort that can be treated.

is it legitimate? is it nonsense?

An EMG machine is a real machine that really measures electrical activity of muscles. However that doesn’t mean that it has any therapeutic benefit when used in this way. If you read the material on the manufacturer’s website, you’ll notice that they emphasize how much money it can earn for the buyer of the machine in terms of winning lawsuits and convincing people to become patients. I don’t see much there about cures or rehab.

Personally, if it were me, I would run away from this sort of thing. The only chiropractic treatment that I would consider getting is ART. But that’s just me.

You don’t say what problem you have that brought you to the chiropractor in the first place. I won’t ask because it’s none of my business. But if it were me, I would ask myself, “What other sorts of treatments are available for my complaint?”

Here are some of the professionals I would consult before I even thought of going near a Myovision-equipped office:

Mobility coach
Yoga instructor
Orthopedic surgeon
Physiatrist
etc.

Perhaps before my next chiropractor visit, I will consult with a physical therapist and see what they have to say.

Sounds like a good idea.[/quote]

Yeah, I said 6000 but it was probably 8000. Eitherway, it seemed kind of finkish to me.

I did mention the ‘problem’(or at least I thought I did) but it is not really a problem, more of a curiosity. I have had this very minor lower back twinge since doing a heavy deadlift about 2 weeks ago. But I am not sure if it was the deadlift, or perhaps my sleeping posture, or any number of things.

It is not painful, and it is not debilitating, it is just a little tingling that I can feel when my back is not straight.

I would like to goto as many medical professionals as possible. It is fascinating to me the varying level of expertise and knowledge even amongst the very high qualified. Thanks for the recommendations.

Also, I am enjoying this topic a lot, thanks everyone for your contributions.

Thank you very much for the storied input! I need to verify, but I think that the chiropractor I visited was schooled at Palmer’s institute, funny coincidence.

Fortunately, I did just get a recommendation from a friend of a ‘really good’ chiropractor, a recommendation I would take to heart since my friend is a very active individual studying physical therapy and physiology, and he is a skeptical person. So I may give his chiropractor a call if this one turns out to be kind of quacky.

[quote]MikeKubo wrote:

I asked myself, are these adjustments healing me? In other words, if I have muscle imbalances or tightness, then why would adjusting my bones have any lasting effect? In my opinion, it becomes an on-going treatment with no end in sight.

I’m a personal trainer who has done thousands of hours of on his own research over the past 5 years, and I’m also married to the office manager of a chiropractic clinic. On top of that, I am a professional wrestler, and have incurred many, many injuries. I feel to be more than qualified to talk about this subject, and if anyone cares, this is my opinion on chiropractic.

A) If someone just ‘feels around’ and goes for an adjustment, tell them no thanks, and run. An Xray is needed. When I was youngr, and didn’t realize this, I let a chiro at a wrestling show that was hired by the promoter adjust me. He almost tore my shoulder out of the socket, and I was in pain for months. If they tell you no tests or Xrays specifically are needed, they’re idiots. Go somewhere else.

B) I have no history whatsoever with the electro adjuster gimmicks, but I have heard a lot of bad about them from chiro’s that we’re trained at Palmer, which is the Chiro institute founded by the originator of chiropractic. Take that for what you will, but I don’t know how much I would trust them.

C) As far as the muscle/bone issue, I agree totally. I’d say people would get at least 100% better results from a chiro w/ a good training program suited for their needs than they would by chiro alone. Chiro’s will say the bones stay where they should through consistent adjustment, and to a large extent, I believe that. How many people who go to them are like us? Not many, and most of them think I’m a jackass for what I do to my body. However, they also all agree that my gym work has helped my body to a large extent. What I do in the gym helps unfuck what I’ve done in the ring.

D) They help unfuck it the rest of the way. And this is where the chiro comes in real handy. I don’t knowq what your body, training or chiropractor is like, but mine adjusts what I tell her is wrong. Having a large base of knowledge on the human body does not hurt a bit. I go in now, tell them what’s hurting, they know what to check, adjust, and a few hours later and I can train with all out intensity on anything. Before my adjustments, I couldn’t even move my arms at times. Again, this is a balance of being smart on training/knowing your body/knowing your chiro/knowing what to tell them.

E) Chiropractors are like trainers…Tons of bad, some good. Some people walk into the gym fresh off, never been in a gym and expect me to give them a program to get them ‘jacked, cut and feeling better’ in one hour. Doesn’t fucking happen, not possible. Same with chiropractors. Will some try to milk you? Yes, totally. Will the good ones help tremendously? Same answer.

In the end, my best advice is to know your body, know your training principles, know your chiro’s training, know how to do self myofascial release or get massage too, balance your body out with yor training, and use the chiro to fix up what that can’t. And you can’t fix a lot of it.

If your shoulder’s hanging half out of the socket, doing endless rear delt/rotator cuff/lower trap work ain’t gunna help a fucking thing. Howevr, if your chiro has to constantly adjust the thoracic region with terrible ‘cracking’ noises, etc, maybe you should lay off the heavy bench and strengthen your rows for half a year. Success doesn’t come in a day, and neither does a healthy body if you push it to the limits on a regular basis.

I got nuthin else…

Kubo

[/quote]