Bulking with High Bodyfat?

[SKELAC]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

So,why not get lean first,bulk up a bit,get lean again and never get fat.
[/quote]

How about you focus on size for about 2 to 3 years and maintain your course making corrections as needed so you can optimally gain that base of muscle mass without gaining so much fat you become obese?

Do you know what happens to guys who “bulk up a little and then diet” before they build that solid base? They run in circles for years and rarely get that big.

No one here is telling people to get fat. You seem confused.[/quote]

1.we are discussing something complex (many variables,age,hormones,training programs,nutrition,lifestyle,body composition),with too simple and narrow concepts.At least we need some numbers tossed in -like bodyweight,body-fat percentages,training age,individual factors,etc.

2.bulking up is something that is more applicable to someone in the first 2 years of body building.later on,muscle building is exponentialy slowing down.

3.if you bulk up for 10 months,youre likely to gain most of the muscle in the first part of the bulking period.Likewise,lossing fat for 4 months,youre likely to lose most fat in the first month or two.So,cycling shorter periods of bulking and cutting should be applied.

[Anus_Bleach]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
3.if you bulk up for 10 months,youre likely to gain most of the muscle in the first part of the bulking period.Likewise,lossing fat for 4 months,youre likely to lose most fat in the first month or two.So,cycling shorter periods of bulking and cutting should be applied.[/quote]

What are you basing that on? Experience? Do you have a lot of muscle? Because it sounds to me like you dont know much about bbing. If you did, then you would know that you have to hold onto your newly gained muscle mass for a while before starting a cut, otherwise it will be among the first things to go once you get into a caloric deficit.

[SKELAC]

[quote]Anus Bleach wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
3.if you bulk up for 10 months,youre likely to gain most of the muscle in the first part of the bulking period.Likewise,lossing fat for 4 months,youre likely to lose most fat in the first month or two.So,cycling shorter periods of bulking and cutting should be applied.[/quote]

What are you basing that on? Experience? Do you have a lot of muscle? Because it sounds to me like you dont know much about bbing. If you did, then you would know that you have to hold onto your newly gained muscle mass for a while before starting a cut, otherwise it will be among the first things to go once you get into a caloric deficit.[/quote]

thats ridiculous!
Its not like you wake up with a new muscle gain and you need to hold on to that muscle mass and body fat you gained to stabilize the homeostasis.
Through slow process of everyday muscle gain,you already did hold onto much of the muscle gained throughout the bulking process.

I never saw in anybody this big loss of muscle while dieting that I hear so much about.Losing slowly fat,while still lifting and doing cardio and keeping protein high,you would lose muscle minimaly.

I am talking about bulking up & dieting for a natural body builder.

[system]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Anus Bleach wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
3.if you bulk up for 10 months,youre likely to gain most of the muscle in the first part of the bulking period.Likewise,lossing fat for 4 months,youre likely to lose most fat in the first month or two.So,cycling shorter periods of bulking and cutting should be applied.[/quote]

What are you basing that on? Experience? Do you have a lot of muscle? Because it sounds to me like you dont know much about bbing. If you did, then you would know that you have to hold onto your newly gained muscle mass for a while before starting a cut, otherwise it will be among the first things to go once you get into a caloric deficit.[/quote]

thats ridiculous!
Its not like you wake up with a new muscle gain and you need to hold on to that muscle mass and body fat you gained to stabilize the homeostasis.
Through slow process of everyday muscle gain,you already did hold onto much of the muscle gained throughout the bulking process.

I never saw in anybody this big loss of muscle while dieting that I hear so much about.Losing slowly fat,while still lifting and doing cardio and keeping protein high,you would lose muscle minimaly.

I am talking about bulking up & dieting for a natural body builder.[/quote]

Again, Why is it a common belief here that to gain muscle, you have to gain fat? I know tons of guys that have not only not gained any fat while putting on muscle, they have gotten leaner. If you look at the pros, most do gain fat while they bulk up and add muscle, but thats only cause they are so lean to begin with from their contest prep, it would be hard to gain any size being that lean.

One example, Frank Mir, after he lost his match against brock lesnar, he realized he needed to put on my size and strength to deal with that kind of opponent. So, he got bigger and stronger, but his body actually got leaner as well. You can see his weigh in pics before fights to easily see this. And he didn’t bulk up gaining alot of weight, both muscle and fat. Frank gained muscle, while losing fat. so by the time he fought Carwin, and this wasn’t 2 years later, this was like 7 months later. Of course, him gaining that size didn’t help him that much cause he still lost. but thats not the point. Guys do gain muscle and lose fat all the time. this site needs to wake up.

[Professor_X]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Anus Bleach wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
3.if you bulk up for 10 months,youre likely to gain most of the muscle in the first part of the bulking period.Likewise,lossing fat for 4 months,youre likely to lose most fat in the first month or two.So,cycling shorter periods of bulking and cutting should be applied.[/quote]

What are you basing that on? Experience? Do you have a lot of muscle? Because it sounds to me like you dont know much about bbing. If you did, then you would know that you have to hold onto your newly gained muscle mass for a while before starting a cut, otherwise it will be among the first things to go once you get into a caloric deficit.[/quote]

thats ridiculous!
Its not like you wake up with a new muscle gain and you need to hold on to that muscle mass and body fat you gained to stabilize the homeostasis.
Through slow process of everyday muscle gain,you already did hold onto much of the muscle gained throughout the bulking process.

I never saw in anybody this big loss of muscle while dieting that I hear so much about.Losing slowly fat,while still lifting and doing cardio and keeping protein high,you would lose muscle minimaly.

I am talking about bulking up & dieting for a natural body builder.[/quote]

Dude, you are clueless.

Yes, you do need to hold that weight because extreme levels of muscle mass are not economic for your body to maintain given the energy requirements. Therefore, if your body just gained an extra 5lbs and you immediately start dieting, why would your body hold onto that muscle mass in priority instead of losing it so you now need less calories to survive?

Your body doesn’t give a shit how great you look. Unless you have given it the signal that you will be providing the food and stimulus for that muscle to stay around…LONG ENOUGH FOR YOUR BODY TO GET ADJUSTED TO IT, that will be the first thing lost on a caloric deficit.

You sound like a newb. I seriously doubt there are any 19" cannons on you.

[Zeppelin0731]

I just want to throw this out there…

No, Im not a big guy, but since the question has been posed biologically I feel the need to say something. I am a junior in college at a tier 1 university who is currently 3 credit hours away from a bio minor, and in the health sciences field working on progressing to grad school in an accelerated Physicians Assistant masters program with an interest in potentially becoming a doctor.

Firstly, medicine and science has paid very little attention to bodybuilding, and a lot of what bodybuilding has been preaching all these years is finally being proven and/or researched. Contrary to popular belief in the bodybuilding world, medicine/science doesn’t worry about extremes of human potential in muscle building and human performance. It worries about promoting health and preventing pathology.

In my opinion, (being some dude on a website FWIW) the difference in testosterone between 10% body fat and 20% to my knowledge shouldn’t be that different. A guy at 150 10% body fat shouldn’t have a very different test profile than a guy weighing 160 at 15.5% body fat (that would be if the guy gained 10 straight pounds of adipose with no muscle gain). If it is radically different, I would venture to say that you have some other kind of issue (hormonal or other), or you have gained so much fat that you have other problems rather than worrying about lifting.

Had a friend in high school. He was 275 in 8th grade (not lean at all). By 10th grade the kid was benching 315 for reps, no problem. He was a very big kid. I haven’t seen him in years so I don’t know if he progressed or not, but if he would have cut in like 11th grade he would have been huge compared to people I’ve met at college who I know have been lifting since we got here 3 years ago. The one kid I ran into yesterday while I was in the gym. I remember him saying freshman year that he was 165 and trying to stay lean while gaining weight. He said he was now up to 170.

Also, again in my experience, it is easier to lose fat than to get strong.

Im not saying that my opinion is the be all end all of the discussion, but I dont think that a lot of the claims being made are relevant to the vast majority of people looking to gain size. The people who are spreading this information are physique coaches looking to get people below 5% body fat where every single advantage counts, or coaches working with bodybuilding magazines and guys who are already huge and need to worry about some pretty extreme things to gain any more size (like the point at which one is reaching their genetic potential and “work harder and eat more” doesn’t work anymore).

Now, I’m not saying that this work is to be ignored, in fact I think that this is some of the finest work to ever be done for studying how science affects the fitness/bodybuilding world. What I am saying is that a 145 lb kid who is looking to “get hyooooge” needs to focus more on eating more food in general, and lifting intelligently. (The same goes for a kid like myself who is at 185 and around ~15%.) They do not need to be concerned with improving nutrient partitioning at various levels of body fat. The big thing is how far they are willing to go without worrying about body fat.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the people who write for this site are on here because they not only because they are at the forefront of whatever it is that they do, but also because they are going to tell you to go buy all kinds of supplements, that if you were eating properly, most people looking to get to a basic level of strength/muscularity won’t even need.

I am tired of writing.

-Zep

[SKELAC]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Anus Bleach wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
3.if you bulk up for 10 months,youre likely to gain most of the muscle in the first part of the bulking period.Likewise,lossing fat for 4 months,youre likely to lose most fat in the first month or two.So,cycling shorter periods of bulking and cutting should be applied.[/quote]

What are you basing that on? Experience? Do you have a lot of muscle? Because it sounds to me like you dont know much about bbing. If you did, then you would know that you have to hold onto your newly gained muscle mass for a while before starting a cut, otherwise it will be among the first things to go once you get into a caloric deficit.[/quote]

thats ridiculous!
Its not like you wake up with a new muscle gain and you need to hold on to that muscle mass and body fat you gained to stabilize the homeostasis.
Through slow process of everyday muscle gain,you already did hold onto much of the muscle gained throughout the bulking process.

I never saw in anybody this big loss of muscle while dieting that I hear so much about.Losing slowly fat,while still lifting and doing cardio and keeping protein high,you would lose muscle minimaly.

I am talking about bulking up & dieting for a natural body builder.[/quote]

Dude, you are clueless.

Yes, you do need to hold that weight because extreme levels of muscle mass are not economic for your body to maintain given the energy requirements. Therefore, if your body just gained an extra 5lbs and you immediately start dieting, why would your body hold onto that muscle mass in priority instead of losing it so you now need less calories to survive?

Your body doesn’t give a shit how great you look. Unless you have given it the signal that you will be providing the food and stimulus for that muscle to stay around…LONG ENOUGH FOR YOUR BODY TO GET ADJUSTED TO IT, that will be the first thing lost on a caloric deficit.

You sound like a newb. I seriously doubt there are any 19" cannons on you.[/quote]

Look,if you gained 10 lbs. of muscle and some fat along and if it took you a whole year to get there…well,then you actually held that muscle mass for a long time already.If you went into cutting phase,would you suddenly lose all that muscle?? of course not,if you do things properly,you ll keep most of it.

[SKELAC]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Anus Bleach wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
3.if you bulk up for 10 months,youre likely to gain most of the muscle in the first part of the bulking period.Likewise,lossing fat for 4 months,youre likely to lose most fat in the first month or two.So,cycling shorter periods of bulking and cutting should be applied.[/quote]

What are you basing that on? Experience? Do you have a lot of muscle? Because it sounds to me like you dont know much about bbing. If you did, then you would know that you have to hold onto your newly gained muscle mass for a while before starting a cut, otherwise it will be among the first things to go once you get into a caloric deficit.[/quote]

thats ridiculous!
Its not like you wake up with a new muscle gain and you need to hold on to that muscle mass and body fat you gained to stabilize the homeostasis.
Through slow process of everyday muscle gain,you already did hold onto much of the muscle gained throughout the bulking process.

I never saw in anybody this big loss of muscle while dieting that I hear so much about.Losing slowly fat,while still lifting and doing cardio and keeping protein high,you would lose muscle minimaly.

I am talking about bulking up & dieting for a natural body builder.[/quote]

Dude, you are clueless.

Yes, you do need to hold that weight because extreme levels of muscle mass are not economic for your body to maintain given the energy requirements. Therefore, if your body just gained an extra 5lbs and you immediately start dieting, why would your body hold onto that muscle mass in priority instead of losing it so you now need less calories to survive?

Your body doesn’t give a shit how great you look. Unless you have given it the signal that you will be providing the food and stimulus for that muscle to stay around…LONG ENOUGH FOR YOUR BODY TO GET ADJUSTED TO IT, that will be the first thing lost on a caloric deficit.

You sound like a newb. I seriously doubt there are any 19" cannons on you.[/quote]

Why are you using argumentum ad hominem to discredit anybody smaller than you? Its a forum-made to discuss things.Following the same logic,Greg Kovacz would be the ultimate source of all-muscle -building knowledge worldwide :)))

You post a lot in topics related to getting lean or staying lean,but following the same arrogant attitude of yours,I ask you-

When did you actualy got lean the last time (under 10 % bf)?

On how many your own cutting phases do you base your experience of losing/keeping muscle gained in the last bulking phase?

I highly doubt,you got some great muscle definition on you at any time the last year.

[Professor_X]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

Why are you using argumentum ad hominem to discredit anybody smaller than you? Its a forum-made to discuss things.Following the same logic,Greg Kovacz would be the ultimate source of all-muscle -building knowledge worldwide :)))

You post a lot in topics related to getting lean or staying lean,but following the same arrogant attitude of yours,I ask you-

When did you actualy got lean the last time (under 10 % bf)?

On how many your own cutting phases do you base your experience of losing/keeping muscle gained in the last bulking phase?

I highly doubt,you got some great muscle definition on you at any time the last year.[/quote]

This is me this past November before my motorcycle accident, 3 days before. I could care less what my exact percentage number is, I am not out of shape in this pic nor does it look like I am clueless about dieting at all. I have gained and dieted too many times to count over the years. I have only been under 10% once because my goal up to this past year was more muscle gained.

I do know one thing, I don’t see many people my height bigger and leaner than this short of actual competitors in bodybuilding or athletes.

No one attacked you with “ad hominems”. You were asked what your experience level was to base all of the stuff you just wrote.

Why?

Because it clear to anyone with experience that you don’t have much.

Post a picture now.

[Professor_X]

Original pic with no flash.

Skelac, the whole point is, reading some fucking articles alone does not make someone an expert.

In fact, from what we see…it tends to create some of the most frustratingly hard headed know-it-alls who haven’t built a pound of muscle yet.

[JLone]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Post a picture now.[/quote]
“Well, …we’re waiting!”

[SKELAC]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

Why are you using argumentum ad hominem to discredit anybody smaller than you? Its a forum-made to discuss things.Following the same logic,Greg Kovacz would be the ultimate source of all-muscle -building knowledge worldwide :)))

You post a lot in topics related to getting lean or staying lean,but following the same arrogant attitude of yours,I ask you-

When did you actualy got lean the last time (under 10 % bf)?

On how many your own cutting phases do you base your experience of losing/keeping muscle gained in the last bulking phase?

I highly doubt,you got some great muscle definition on you at any time the last year.[/quote]

This is me this past November before my motorcycle accident, 3 days before. I could care less what my exact percentage number is, I am not out of shape in this pic nor does it look like I am clueless about dieting at all. I have gained and dieted too many times to count over the years. I have only been under 10% once because my goal up to this past year was more muscle gained.

I do know one thing, I don’t see many people my height bigger and leaner than this short of actual competitors in bodybuilding or athletes.

No one attacked you with “ad hominems”. You were asked what your experience level was to base all of the stuff you just wrote.

Why?

Because it clear to anyone with experience that you don’t have much.

Post a picture now.[/quote]

This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.

[SKELAC]

at flabby 200 lb. a bit earlier

[bigmac73nh]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.

[/quote]

SRS? Mirror + camera phone = more recent pics = way more relevant to current level of development.

[Professor_X]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.

[/quote]

We can assume you have not ever been very muscular…so wondering why you feel the need to give advice so much when staying that size and hitting “10%” is NOTHING like getting way bigger and doing the same.

It is not very impressive for a small guy to be lean. You never put in the time and effort to gain any amount of muscle much beyond average.

That is also not an insult…just reality.

[SKELAC]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.[/quote]

We can assume you have not ever been very muscular…so wondering why you feel the need to give advice so much when staying that size and hitting “10%” is NOTHING like getting way bigger and doing the same.

It is not very impressive for a small guy to be lean. You never put in the time and effort to gain any amount of muscle much beyond average.

That is also not an insult…just reality.[/quote]

Its about 30 lb. of muscle more than the average man.But leaner than you,so why are you giving advice on the cutting side of the game??

[SKELAC]

[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.

[/quote]

SRS? Mirror + camera phone = more recent pics = way more relevant to current level of development.[/quote]

Why? It shows I know how to get lean.

Wheres you picture at 10 % bf?

[SKELAC]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.

[/quote]

We can assume you have not ever been very muscular…so wondering why you feel the need to give advice so much when staying that size and hitting “10%” is NOTHING like getting way bigger and doing the same.

It is not very impressive for a small guy to be lean. You never put in the time and effort to gain any amount of muscle much beyond average.

That is also not an insult…just reality.
[/quote]

Your reality about average is way distorted.
Top natural body builders rarely get bigger than lean 200 lb.

Lets not confuse size of natural and non-natural builds and level of leaness.

[Professor_X]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.[/quote]

We can assume you have not ever been very muscular…so wondering why you feel the need to give advice so much when staying that size and hitting “10%” is NOTHING like getting way bigger and doing the same.

It is not very impressive for a small guy to be lean. You never put in the time and effort to gain any amount of muscle much beyond average.

That is also not an insult…just reality.[/quote]

Its about 30 lb. of muscle more than the average man.But leaner than you,so why are you giving advice on the cutting side of the game??
[/quote]

Dude, it’s AVERAGE. You don’t have any development that would make someone think you do anything other than train lightly infrequently.

I dropped several inches off my waist in a few months with no cardio. yeah, I do know something about dieting.

What do you know about gaining big muscles?

People look like you with NO training.

[Professor_X]

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

This is me in the summer of 2010. around 10 % bf at bodyweight of about 185 lb.
Posting this coz its the only one available right now.

[/quote]

We can assume you have not ever been very muscular…so wondering why you feel the need to give advice so much when staying that size and hitting “10%” is NOTHING like getting way bigger and doing the same.

It is not very impressive for a small guy to be lean. You never put in the time and effort to gain any amount of muscle much beyond average.

That is also not an insult…just reality.
[/quote]

Your reality about average is way distorted.
Top natural body builders rarely get bigger than lean 200 lb.

Lets not confuse size of natural and non-natural builds and level of leaness.[/quote]

Wait…so height is now not a factor at all?

No one cares if a skinny guys weighs 200lbs. he’s still skinny.

You are by no means above average in muscular development unless comparing yourself to people who don’t lift at all. I would expect the average guy to pass your development within the first year or two of lifting.