Best Squats for Vertical Jump?

xb_C · September 18, 2007, 4:49am

I would say if you want to increase your verticle, focus of jumping.

RJ24 and myself have concluded in previous threads that in order to run faster, you need sprint.

In this case I would imagine implementing verticle jumping into your routine would be a good idea. Since that is what you want to increase.

The guys over at westside do box jumps, try those out for a few weeks and switch into seated box jumps.

As for squats, all of them have their pluses and minus, it’s your priority to get into the gym and see what works for you and your goals the best.

ratman201 · September 18, 2007, 12:49pm

Watch Dan John’s seminar on his website. The squat has less carry over to jumping than you would think. Jumping + O-lifts + RDL + stretching the hip flexors. Of course don’t stop squatting.

Donut62 · September 18, 2007, 8:40pm

[quote]brian.m wrote:
Donut62, can you give a reference to the powerlifters jumping as well as elite olympic lifters?

no disrespect, but with the olympic lifting, theres a widely publiced study…all i’ve ever heard about powerlifting is heresay and i honestly dont believe it (yes i know there are Some, but we arent talking about individuals)[/quote]

This oft cited research paper from the early 1960’s has become the Lochness Monster of vertical jump threads on the internet. Despite being passed off as hard fact, I have yet to see this actual research paper or any part of it in either hard or electronic form. All inquires as to those who cite have been futile in producing the paper itself. I’m lead to believe that it may not exist, or was very informal and thus of questionable scientific validity.

Keep in mind though, that I have no doubt that research conducted on the Olympic field of athletes in 1960 would show that Oly lifters had the highest jump and short-distance explosiveness. Why? Because at that time they were probably the only athletes competing whose training regime consisted of a lot of heavy lifting. Try a similar study now in 2007 with sprinters squatting 600 pounds, shot putters (one of whom holds the standing broad jump world record) bench pressing 500 pounds raw, etc. and I would bet my life that it wouldn’t paint oly lifters into a category of their own.

So the only real evidence you can point to about the vertical jump debate is anecdotal. And when I see the 300 pound guys at Westside jumping onto 40-plus inch boxes, football players Joe DeFranco trains (no oly lifts here either) jumping onto boxes nearly the height of their bodies, I am led to believe that high levels of base strength combined with building an effective nervous system (neither of which require oly lifts to do) is far more important than mastering the clean and snatch in creating a big vertical. Not saying that olympic lifting won’t contribute to a big jump, but they are far more optional than necessary.

jtrinsey · September 18, 2007, 9:30pm

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
brian.m wrote:
Donut62, can you give a reference to the powerlifters jumping as well as elite olympic lifters?

no disrespect, but with the olympic lifting, theres a widely publiced study…all i’ve ever heard about powerlifting is heresay and i honestly dont believe it (yes i know there are Some, but we arent talking about individuals)

This oft cited research paper from the early 1960’s has become the Lochness Monster of vertical jump threads on the internet. Despite being passed off as hard fact, I have yet to see this actual research paper or any part of it in either hard or electronic form. All inquires as to those who have been futile. I’m lead to believe that it may not exist, or was very informal and thus of questionable scientific validity.

Keep in mind though, that I have no doubt that research conducted on the Olympic field of athletes in the 1960 would show that Oly lifters had the highest jump and short-distance explosiveness. Why? Because at that time they were probably the only athletes competing who’s training regime consisted of a lot of heavy lifting. Try this now in 2007 with sprinters squatting 600 pounds, shot putters (one of whom holds the standing broad jump world record) bench pressing 500 pounds raw, etc. and I would bet my life that it wouldn’t paint oly lifters into a category of their own.

So the only real evidence you can point to about the vertical jump debate is antecdotal. And when I see the 300 pound guys at Westside jumping onto 40-plus inch boxes, football players Joe Defranco trains (no oly lifts here either) jumping onto boxes nearly the height of their bodies I am led to believe that high levels of base strength combined with building an effective nervous system (neither of which require oly lifts to do) is far more important than mastering the clean and snatch in creating a big vertical. Not saying that olympic lifting won’t contribute to a big jump, but they are far more optional than necessary.
[/quote]

Good post

Donut62 · September 19, 2007, 7:26am

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Well Brian, that study you’re quoting is hearsay as well. I’ve seen it being referred to for years, but not once has anyone been able to present a copy of it when asked to. As far as I’m concerned, that study never happened and people should really stop quoting it. [/quote]

Word, same here.

Neospartan · September 19, 2007, 7:32am

Ok now here is something that I don’t understand…

Why the F* are people arguing that Olympic Lifting is better than Powerlifting and vise-versa in carryover to sports and athletic ability???

They are BOTH good for building strength, endurance, muscle, explosiveness, etc… So wtf is the problem?!!

Pretty much all major athletes and good coaches train all of these lifts and their variations. Hell, even Olympic lifters do Back Squats, Deadlifts, and Bench Press.

The OP wanted advice on improving the vertical jump, we gave him a LOT of options. Now he has to organize them as he sees fit and do them. Then trow away what doesn’t work, keep what does work, and vary his training regime.

I hope this “Olympic lifting not necessary” crap that the Thinker put out in the Elite Fitness Systems (great source of knowledge btw) articles doesn’t become popular.

brian_m · September 19, 2007, 8:25am

i dont get jumping on to boxes, i’ve jumped onto 48" boxes before, and i seriosuly doubt that my vertical has EVER been over 27"…that is not a good vertical…jumping on to boxes doesnt mean much to me

OBoile · September 19, 2007, 8:34am

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
Go play basketball if you want to dunk, I played all through middle and high school and could dunk in highschool at 5’11"/6’, I played all the time, like 5 days a week. Now I don’t play at all and I can’t dunk anymore, but I am much stronger than when I was in highschool, so IMO lifting weights is very ineffective at improving jumping ability…unless you are very weak to begin with but you don’t have that problem. [/quote]

Do not listen to this post.

smallmike · September 19, 2007, 8:56am

Neospartan, I don’t understand your position…are you saying Olympic lifting is necessary?

Donut62 · September 19, 2007, 9:31am

[quote]NeoSpartan wrote:
Why the F* are people arguing that Olympic Lifting is better than Powerlifting and vise-versa in carryover to sports and athletic ability???

They are BOTH good for building strength, endurance, muscle, explosiveness, etc… So wtf is the problem?!!

…

I hope this “Olympic lifting not necessary” crap that the Thinker put out in the Elite Fitness Systems (great source of knowledge btw) articles doesn’t become popular. [/quote]

First off you can say “fuck”, no one will cry. Crediting the Thinker for starting this line of thought is asinine, as Louie Simmons was preaching the same thing back in the 80’s, and it was hardly new then. You ask “wtf is the problem”.

As we have all stated, it is that the learning curve to get maximum benefit out of Olympic lifts make them not worth bothering with for most trainees. They are no better than many other lifts that do not require a high degree of technical precision. Nothing hard to understand about that.

eic · September 19, 2007, 10:09am

[quote]NeoSpartan wrote:
Ok now here is something that I don’t understand…

Why the F* are people arguing that Olympic Lifting is better than Powerlifting and vise-versa in carryover to sports and athletic ability???

They are BOTH good for building strength, endurance, muscle, explosiveness, etc… So wtf is the problem?!!

Pretty much all major athletes and good coaches train all of these lifts and their variations. Hell, even Olympic lifters do Back Squats, Deadlifts, and Bench Press.

The OP wanted advice on improving the vertical jump, we gave him a LOT of options. Now he has to organize them as he sees fit and do them. Then trow away what doesn’t work, keep what does work, and vary his training regime.

I hope this “Olympic lifting not necessary” crap that the Thinker put out in the Elite Fitness Systems (great source of knowledge btw) articles doesn’t become popular.

[/quote]

Dude, it was not started by “the Thinker” and it is not a new trend. I think the attitudes that you are finding in this thread are a reaction to the mentality, no doubt started by Eppley here at the University of Nebraska, that oly lifts are the key to success in virtually every sport.

The problem is that olympic lifting is a sport unto itself. Those lifts are so difficult to master and mastering them is what you need to derive much of the benefit. How would a clean be anymore beneficial to me than a jump squat would be? I argue that the jump squat is just as, if not more, beneficial yet takes approximately 30 sec. to learn. That is the point in all of this: Finding the straightest line possible to our goals. For those of us who are not proficient in the olympic lifts ought to look elsewhere.

If all a dude did was work hard at a few basic moves (squat, deadlift, split squat, GHR, pullthroughs, rack pulls, etc.) and did a fair amount of jumping and sprinting, he would be quite fast and explosive even if he never did a clean, snatch, or jerk. Why is this so hard to accept?

eic · September 19, 2007, 10:10am

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
First off you can say “fuck”, no one will cry. Crediting the Thinker for starting this line of thought is asinine, as Louie Simmons was preaching the same thing back in the 80’s, and it was hardly new then. You ask “wtf is the problem”.

As we have all stated, it is that the learning curve to get maximum benefit out of Olympic lifts make them not worth bothering with for most trainees. They are no better than many other lifts that do not require a high degree of technical precision. Nothing hard to understand about that.[/quote]

I just posted this same thing like 30 seconds ago. Our posts must have crossed. Weird!

superhero_1 · September 19, 2007, 10:18am

DeFranco is god

Neospartan · September 19, 2007, 10:33am

No its not hard to accept at all.

I see and understand what you are saying and I agree with you. Especially now that you cleared the message.

undeadlift · September 20, 2007, 5:25am

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
As we have all stated, it is that the learning curve to get maximum benefit out of Olympic lifts make them not worth bothering with for most trainees. They are no better than many other lifts that do not require a high degree of technical precision. Nothing hard to understand about that.[/quote]

It’s not that hard to learn power variations of olympic lifts. You don’t need to squat down a power clean, and you don’t need to split lunge to power jerk. All you have to do is rip that weight off the ground as fast as you can, catch it on your shoulders, and JUMP to put that weight overhead (that jump part carries over nicely). I learned to do all that by myself within 10 minutes.

So if jumping is your main concern, nobody should be wasting their time trying to learn how to do REAL olympic because you can use their power variations that have great carryovers and don’t require too much time to learn.

BRUCELEEWANNABE · September 20, 2007, 5:56am

[quote]romanaz wrote:
while full o-lifts are great for explosive power, they take to long to learn to be effective, and even so, it takes a while, until your putting well above your bodyweight overhead to get the kind of VJ and sprinting speed ELITE O-lifters have.

keyword is elite there.

I would say, try hang clean pulls or hang power cleans and learn the technique (not much, took 5mins to teach a D3 Baseball team) and load on it a bit.

I’m all for ATG squats. If your not doing them now, do them. Down slow, up FAST.[/quote]

Well said!

k1t0r5 · September 20, 2007, 10:12am

RJ24 and Donut62, are you guys serious? I found this on the first page of a google search and I’m sure there’s plenty more.

“A 15-week study compared football players using a powerlifting program to players using an Olympic weightlifting program to improve athletic performance. After the 15-week study was over, the Olympic weightlifting group showed a significant improvement in the vertical jump and 40 meter sprint over the powerlifting group.”

and here’s the study:

Hoffman, Jr, J Cooper, M Wendell, and J Kang. “Comparison of Olympic Vs. Traditional Power Lifting Training Programs in Football Players.” 18 (2004): 129-135. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18 (2004).

It may not be the study from the 60s that people supposedly quote, but it proves the same point nonetheless. If you actually took the time to do a little searching, you would have found this study as well as several others proving the exact same point.

Yes it may take some time to learn the olympic lifts, but it is well worth the effort. Are they necessary to improve one’s vertical jump? No. Can they be a tremendous help (more than squatting alone) if you take the time to learn them? Yes.

If I had an athlete that had 4 weeks to improve his jump and he didn’t know how to do the o-lifts, then I wouldn’t even bother with them. If there’s no specific timeframe, however, it is well worth the time and effort.

SquatDr · September 20, 2007, 12:24pm

[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
RJ24 and Donut62, are you guys serious? I found this on the first page of a google search and I’m sure there’s plenty more.

“A 15-week study compared football players using a powerlifting program to players using an Olympic weightlifting program to improve athletic performance. After the 15-week study was over, the Olympic weightlifting group showed a significant improvement in the vertical jump and 40 meter sprint over the powerlifting group.”

and here’s the study:

Hoffman, Jr, J Cooper, M Wendell, and J Kang. “Comparison of Olympic Vs. Traditional Power Lifting Training Programs in Football Players.” 18 (2004): 129-135. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18 (2004).

It may not be the study from the 60s that people supposedly quote, but it proves the same point nonetheless. If you actually took the time to do a little searching, you would have found this study as well as several others proving the exact same point.

Yes it may take some time to learn the olympic lifts, but it is well worth the effort. Are they necessary to improve one’s vertical jump? No. Can they be a tremendous help (more than squatting alone) if you take the time to learn them? Yes.

If I had an athlete that had 4 weeks to improve his jump and he didn’t know how to do the o-lifts, then I wouldn’t even bother with them. If there’s no specific timeframe, however, it is well worth the time and effort.[/quote]

good find, and very interesting. however i think what the debate is, is not whether powerlifting is better than oly lifting or the other way around, but that all one needs to do is jump squat to get the same benefit as the oly lifts.

someone suggested just picking up the weight explosively is all you need to do to get the benefit of an oly lift, but i would argue that triple extension is the main purpose of the oly lifts, which most people dont get right off the bat. which is why in many cases the high pulls are very effective alternates to the full oly lifts themselves as long as triple extension is used.

in the end, i think we can mostly agree that a combo of the power lifts, jump squats and or oly lifts, and some jumping would be what you need. you could throw some sprinting in there too if needed.

RJ24 · September 20, 2007, 12:33pm

k1t0r5, yes, I’m absolutely serious. Donut and I were both referring to the famous 1964 Olympic study that everyone quotes.

The study you found proves nothing of importance. What it does prove is that olympic lifting alone will improve explosiveness more than heavy lifting alone. Well duh, anyone could have told you that doing anything explosively will have a greater immediate impact on moving explosively than lifting heavy will.

I understand the physiological impact each exercise brings to the table and the consequential effect it has on the athlete. If you did too, then you would realize that there’s nothing special about the olympic lifts. Here, let me break it down for you.

The pull phase of each lift trains concentric strength in the hip extensors with compensatory acceleration and a minimal deceleration zone.

The catch phase trains trains the quads and rear extensors under a great eccentric force. This is the prime benefit of the OLYs, something the power versions do not provide.

Standing after the catch again trains the muscles of the legs and back concentrically.

The lift is performed with weights far short of limit strength, but compensatory acceleration allows the force of the bar to be near maximal, thereby making them useful for MaxS despite the decreased loading. However, the prime benefit of the olympic lifts for athletes is found during the ammortization phase of the catch. It is here where their force absorption abilities are developed. These will feed into nearly all facets of athletic skill.

So, olympic lifts (the full lifts) are useful, but from a technical standpoint they are very inconvenient. It would be much simpler, and more effective, to just replace them with reactive back squats, where one divebombs into the bottom and then reacts out as in the catch phase, and paused jump squats. Neither of which take more than a minute to teach.

Also, even if you do learn to do the OLYs, there are more effective derivations of them (in terms of concentric strength training). You may find this interesting:
www.nsca-lift.org/Abstracts/detabs.asp?id=507

So, you can learn the OLYs, but why? There are so many more effective lifts out there.

Cymru · September 20, 2007, 5:59pm

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
k1t0r5, yes, I’m absolutely serious. Donut and I were both referring to the famous 1964 Olympic study that everyone quotes.