So then how is estrogen calculated ? Do the studies you posted show this because I don’t have time right now to read.
Tell me why do they continue to lower our free t and total max ranges.
More and more men and women are having more issues with hormones than ever before. Today’s max range is 30% lower than 5 years ago. That’s not healthy. Do they create these ranges via healthy folks who have zero issues? I would say it’s a sick population if the so called healthy male has less and less hormones alas the years pass. It should be alarming.
We know that free t is relative to e in healthy individuals. The more we have the more e we have right? So why would I want to follow a lab range that says max free t is 21 and e2 is 40 or so.
If I jump to 25 why are we running around looking at e ranges in the adbsence of Free t and told that it’s above range? A range that is constantly moving.
Does that explain what I’m saying there? For me it’s clear as day… I’ll Check out those studies when I can.
You are conflating two related issues. When Neal Rouzier says the estradiol level of a young man is 75-100, that’s incorrect a VAST majority of the time. Read up on RIA vs sensitive method as well.
Now trying to determine what the correct estradiol level is on a TRT male, that’s a related topic. My point is that one shouldn’t try to justify elevated levels of E2 on TRT because young males have “high levels”. That’s bunk. Justify TRT E2 levels based on the merits of estradiol’s function in the body. Also you have to allow for biochemical individuality. Saying every dude should run their E2 as high as they can makes just as much sense as saying everyone should have E2 of 22 pg/ml.
You are jumping around here. Point taken on Total T range. My comment was directed at E2 range and whether this range was determined based on a “healthy” population.
Given obesity crisis and using sensitive E2 method, it would be fun to track sensitive E2 range over time in men. Assuming constant average HPTA function over time (probably bad assumption) and the average male getting fatter over time, I would suspect the T/E2 ratio is dropping over time. Hence, max total T (in range) will drop over time as we’ve seen and sensitive E2 max will increase over time due to higher aromatization rates in males.
I get the gist of your point though, clinical hormone ranges will/may change as a larger portion of the population suffers from lifestyle and environmental factors.
@bmbrady77
The reasons I left are nothing like what is being described here. Nobody knows who anyone is here. When I saw the way guys like Dr Nichols were being spoken to, like they were some kind of noob, I was stunned. He, along with most of the docs closed their accounts and I quickly followed suit. There are no ‘absolutes’ as people continue to imply. However, when you’ve got something that is being confirmed for LITERALLY thousands of guys, you begin to see how rare, if ever, some of this stuff would ever be necessary. I like to keep things simple. The stuff I discuss will apply to 99.99% of the men out there (yes, that many). There will always be that 1 in ten thousand strange case, agreed. I can’t sit here an explain what that guy would need to do because it would be a waste of time. I’m trying to help as many people as possible. If some of you insist that you’re one in ten thousand, I’ve got news for you: you aren’t that special lol! I have emails and messages and selfie videos sent to me every day which is very rewarding. Easily two a week from guys who were going to commit suicide before making the proposed changes and finally feel better (I kid you not). I don’t make a penny off this stuff. I’m not here to be anyone’s friend. I’m not here to develop some much-loved public persona. I thought my dad was the biggest asshole ever when I was 16, when I didn’t know anything, and now I respect him more than anything. Teaching is hard. There is always resistance. However, I can tell you WITH CERTAINTY, that if I open my mouth and say something, I am absolutely CERTAIN that what I’m saying is the truth as I’ve researched the hell out of it. I am scared to death of saying something inaccurate. I want everyone to have the BEST information possible. In regard to the whole FB group stuff, there is really no excuse. Anyone can create a fake profile, provide virtually no information, no pic, and just use it as an account to join the group. If anyone doesn’t agree with what I say they can message the docs directly as I learned it straight from them. I spend more time on the phone with them every day than I do with my own clients. I will say this again: There is NO REASON why ANY of you need an AI. NONE. Every single one of you, who are having issues, has an explanation I can provide or that the docs can provide. Most of you have one common issue: you over-complicate things. If you knew what I know, you’d realize how ridiculously simple TRT really is. It’s just stupid easy. We all just want to analyze the hell out of it and make it complicated.
@readalot there is an inherent issue with your analysis. I’ll reply when I get back to my office later today.
Thanks for taking the time to provide your thoughts. It’s great you’re trying to help. Based on watching and reading the over last year there’s three points that have been touted I just can’t get down with:
Dear TRT user, no concerns with running your E2 level as high as possible. Hey look, young men have estradiol levels of 75-100. That’s great, right? Unfortunately they don’t have estradiol levels of 75-100. If your T/E2 ratio is really low (especially when taking exogenous T), your body is probably telling you something, like “hey, don’t be fat.”
Running Hct above 50 is perfectly fine and harmless. This statement is dangerous to men who have compromised cardiovascular systems. Sure, you can get away with running high Hcts for a while if in great shape, but this suggestion is not helpful to obese, poor cardio dude who goes on TRT. Do no harm.
hCG is bad ju-ju. So tell me, what does one do when they induce organ failure through the use of exogenous T? The patient’s testicles become soft and painful after a few months. For those patients that are secondary, their testicles work just fine and hCG stim test confirms. So what now?
EDIT: my link to other site was removed but if you go to ExcelMale you can find it by searching for
Hematocrit, TRT → systemic vascular resistance response
This is important enough topic that I wanted to make sure people understand the pros / cons of blood viscosity.
An E2 of 35 does not accomplish all those effects. How do we know? By doing decades of studies on people that dont have any and giving it back. Those people would be menopausal women. Minimum effective level is >60
Really???I mean really??? i dont have the time to teach you everything but the mere fact you get your information from ExMale says a lot. The inmates really run the asylum there for sure. #2 Why do men with the worst heart conditions such as heart failure do better when given testosterone ? These men certainly have compromised cardiovascular systems.
Why has testosterone not caused a heart attack,stroke, or clot in ANY STUDY done EVER??? Not one study. It has been used and abused for over 70 years. Why evidence do you have to support #2? i will tell you…absolutely positively nothing. Your #1 and #3 are just as bad.
You yourself do not understand about blood viscosity. Just look at the literature…
I wish it was that simple with HCH but its not. Most men feel awful on it unfortunately Otherwise when start TRT i will also try to keep my balls running if I can handle the damn thing. Daily injections together with the test small doses after the first six weeks is what i will try…
Thanks right most do better without Hcg than on it. It is not identical to LH and can cause a lot of side effects. Its a substance used to maintain fertility…it doesnt mean its good for you or makes you feel better
I read a number of sites. In this particle case, I was providing information to that forum, not getting it.
Hey if you find anything factually inaccurate in that work, please let me know. Given the importance of the information and the issue with linking to another site here, I may have to reproduce the entire thread over here. I haven’t seen any posts where someone goes to the trouble of discussing plasma viscosity and its importance when discussing Hct and serum viscosity. But like I said, if you are down for scientific critique of my review rather than ad hominem of an entire forum, be my guest.
Let’s say I’m secondary and for a number of reasons I’m on exogenous T instead of hCG. 3 months in my testicles are soft and atrophied. They ache really bad. What shall I do?
Otherwise when start TRT i will also try to keep my balls running if I can handle the damn thing. Daily injections together with the test small doses after the first six weeks is what i will try…
