T Nation

Benefits of Estrogen for TRT Patients

For the men here I urge you to think with logic not experience alone. Be open to evidence. Use logic not fear to make decisions when doing trt.

For those who love to tell men to block estrogen anytime a symptom arises. Or if the estrogen lab range is high. Please read this article. Provide similar evidence disputing these facts. It won’t happen. @hrdlvn you especially love to do this and I hope I can convince you otherwise. Until now you have not once had a gentlemanly debate on this subject. You always disappear when the questions get tough. Yet you run around telling folks “this forum is not checked for good advice and Be careful who you listen to”. Yet you yourself have not once provided an ounce or shred of evidence supporting your guidance of taking ai and being scared of estrogen.

For the new men. If someone suggests anything related to Trt do not take anyone’s word for it. Find literature and evidence that backs up their comments. If they cannot
Backup their suggestions I suggest you put any suggestions of theirs out your mind.

In regards to estrogen in men the conclusion of this study below. Read page 3 and we find that estrogen is producing many of the effects we look for when starting trt. Men with low estrogen and high T are having issues. Men wirh low t and high estrogen are having issues. How do we find the balance ? Let the body do its magic folks. I

The benefits of TrT are simple: theee hormones in one are produced. Without this synergy we are losing a third or more of our benefits.

Anyone here who thinks e2 should be blocked please provide a study that shows this.

I WILL NOTE THAT estrogen symptoms are non existent when free t , DHT and estrogen have a good balance. Most lower trt doses when symptoms arise. Instead of trying more they continually lower their dose because everyome thinks estrogen. Next time try more and a higher frequency like daily.

Remember that the body aromitizes for a reason. It needs this hormone. Why screw with your bodily functions?

Also another study I will post in the next comment about estrogen and how it’s produced and why we were wrong all along thinking a e2 sensitive test is accurate.

Read the study click here

Recent evidence has demonstrated that many biological actions historically attributed to testosterone are instead, at least in part, mediated by its aromatization product E2. The data are strongest for effects on bone, fat mass, insulin resistance and VMS. The relevance of these data is that clinically efficacious treatment of male hypogonadism is best achieved with testosterone, which provides ‘three hormones in one’ – testosterone, DHT, E2. Conversely, this evidence raises caution regarding the use of selective androgen receptor modulators, non- aromatizable androgens and AIs for male hypogonadism, and emphasizes the need for better understanding of the tissue-specific effects of SERMs, which are also used off label by some practitioners for this purpose. They also suggest that E2, either as sole ADT or as add-back to conventional GnRH analog-based ADT, may be a promising treatment to mitigate some of the adverse effects of ADT given to men with prostate cancer. Most current studies in men are relatively small, short term, and the design of experimental studies does not always recapitulate physiology. More research is needed

2 Likes

Thanks to Dr grant he shared this as well.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/html/10.1055/s-2004-823023

“In males, it has been estimated that at best the testes can account for 15% of circulating estrogens,[80] and local production of estrogens, both intratesticular and extragonadal, is of physiological significance throughout adult life. For example, the Leydig cells[81] and other cells of the testes, including germ cells in various stages of differentiation,[82] produce estradiol, which has an important role in spermatogenesis. Estrogen production in bone appears to be as vital for the maintenance of bone mineralization and prevention of osteoporosis in men as it is in women. This is supported by studies of men with either a mutation of the gene encoding the aromatase enzyme[54] [83] or a mutation of the estrogen receptor,[53] as well as by mouse models of gene disruption. In a similar fashion, recent evidence indicates that estrogen production in one or more brain sites has a major influence on sexual behavior in males”

and…

“In the male circulation, in contrast, the levels of testosterone are at least an order of magnitude greater than those circulating in the plasma of postmenopausal women. Moreover, it is also two orders of magnitude greater than the mean levels of circulating estradiol in postmenopausal women. Given that much of the circulating estradiol is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin, it is unlikely to have a major impact on transactivation of the estrogen receptor, compared with estrogen produced locally as a consequence of conversion of circulating testosterone. Thus the uninterrupted sufficiency of circulating testosterone in men throughout life supports the local production of estradiol by aromatization of testosterone in estrogen-dependent tissues and thereby affords ongoing protection against the so-called estrogen-deficiency diseases. This appears to be important in terms of protecting the bones of men against mineral loss and may contribute to the maintenance of cognitive function and prevention of Alzheimer’s disease in men.”

"

Thus the uninterrupted sufficiency of circulating testosterone in men throughout life supports the local production of estradiol by aromatization of testosterone in estrogen-dependent tissues and thereby affords ongoing protection against the so-called estrogen-deficiency diseases. This appears to be important in terms of protecting the bones of men against mineral loss and may contribute to the maintenance of cognitive function and prevention of Alzheimer’s disease in men

Most of the best doctors in the world now are totally AGAINST any blocking and control of estrogen except in many rare circumstances.

Yes and those doctors used to prescribe ai and use evidence as their deciding factor. They are also thinking logically and not following the last guy who said “give ai if e2 gets high”.

I think a lot of the time symptoms arise from large peaks when injecting large doses which may not be estrogen related , some guys are sensitive to these large peaks.

1 Like

I can’t seem to access the study you linked, but when I came here as a newb on TRT years ago, I was asking the same thing…“Is 22 really the sweet spot for e2, or should it be more of a ratio from what your T numbers show?” That “seemed” more logical to me. But “seems” doesn’t really mean anything. Many times in life, the truth is counter-intuitive…or there’s more than one “truth” and you have to weigh out the pros and cons of what’s personally best for you.

Coincidentally, recently I had been adjusting my dosages (including AI) and had been real curious for my next set of labs because I’ve been feeling GREAT. I hit a sweet spot. I just didn’t know what my current levels were.

Well yesterday I had my blood drawn and by last night my results already started coming back (I have an account with DLS labs which gives you real-time results online). It turns out my current e2 is 23…damn near dead-on the sweet spot recommended here for ages. Previously my e2 was 31, which doesn’t seem very far off. But it did indeed make a huge difference for me. On top of that, all my lipid numbers are great and in fact better than last time.

I haven’t kept up enough on all the postings during the transition period here, so I am unaware of what all the negative feelings towards AI is about, but I am always open to learn/listen.

Check this out:

1 Like

Ive not started TRT yet but last week just for testing purposes I injected one single injection. Yes, I know its pointless and stupid but wanted to test just for severe reactions or allergies.

I injected 80mg sub q enanthate

I think that day I experienced adrenaline reaction - overhyped, a lot of energy, anxiety and libido was destroyed. I know testosterone enanthate could not act so quickly. But maybe its massive quantity entering the blood for fist time ever caused that. A friend of mine recently started TRT and said the first night he injected his heart had some palpitations and he couldnt sleep.

By the way on the third day after the injection I felt unusually strong libido so maybe that test peaked a little bit who knows.

But my point is yes some guys maybe cannot handle this.

I think if I start TRT I need to use ED injections or scrottal cream, but Ive read testimonials of guys that became too aggressive from the cream possible due to huge rise in DHT levels. And I have anger issues and Im not for that…

@vonko1988,

I think where it comes to TRT, and especially since it involves injecting a substance directly into the body, many people have severe psychosomatic reactions. I’ve read many similar posts here over the years. The adrenaline reaction you felt stemmed from mental anxiety.

There is no physical way the injection did that to you. What you injected is purposely biologically inactive and bound to its esters, which then need to be cleaved off before the testosterone can become available to the body. For enanthate that typically takes 8 - 10 days.

Conversely, when I had my first injection I was dying to feel it right away! I wanted to feel the effects the same day. But unfortunately I didn’t start feeling anything until at least 2 weeks in. For me I was positively excited wanting to feel the effects. For you I’m guessing there was some anxiety about it all instead (including the mental part of dealing with a needle).

I don’t know, this is just my theory…but the unavailability of the testosterone etc., are facts.

Yes, that’s the way it works. But if you ever want to feel immediate effects, try aqueous testosterone, or suspension. That’ll do it.

As far as the above video, I get the impression he’s conflating extreme suppression of e2 with people merely looking to find an optimal level (as opposed to “the more e2 the better”). Because he was mentioning testosterone levels being boosted 50% with an AI. If you increased your T totals by 50% with an AI, you’ve apparently taken so much AI that you’ve completely wiped out all e2. And of COURSE you’re going to have negative effects and bone loss at that point. He never addressees a possible optimal level and just keeps repeating that the more e2 you have, the better . Now I can’t think of a single hormone in the body where that would apply. There must be an optimal range, but he doesn’t go there.

Some of the guys here are missing the point. They feel great now on AI but the video and I’ll repost the links but the articles show estrogen plays a key role in our health.

In years to come men will realize the damage that has been done. From arteries to joints and bone density. Long term suppression of estrogen hurts and secondly no such thing as a sweet spot.

Most men who come off ai thigiht they felt great. What they didn’t realize was it gets better when the body does its own work.

Weird I can’t either now I’ll have to download and upload when at office tomorrow.

What is the thinking on supplementing dhea?

@enackers @highpull

Is it possible that dhea actually loweres hormones?

@enackers,

Let’s say my e2 was at a healthy and normal 29 before ever starting TRT, and the once on TRT I used an AI to keep it at 29 (as opposed to having it shoot up due to exogenous T and conversion)…how is that unhealthy or damaging to bones? It’d still be at 29…

More estrogen is simply better for the health. And the way AI blocks as I understand no matter the number you keep causes damage.

Unlimited estrogen? There’s no optimal range? Seems odd. I mean the optimal range may be much higher than previously thought, but there must be an optimal range and a level that’s too much.

3 Likes

As I understand if TRT is done correctly E2 should never be too high according to testosterone levels.

E2 usually seems to go high with shitty protocols of rare injections. And I know people with 70-80 E2 that feel fine.

I’ve had 45-50 E2 with 22ng/L free test(NO TRT) and I’ve been feeling very well

Where did all this dogma come from that higher estrogen is bad for men?

Even if your on cycle, most of the guys taking an AI are usually worse off due to nuked estrogen.

3 Likes