Benching More Than Squat...

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
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[quote]halfpintdd wrote:
Hanley wrote:

It takes balls to lift off a weight you know could easily crush you. I think alot of people are afraid of this.

No, I think it’s a lack of intelligence actually. If you can not physically lift the weight without gear, than why would you want to put yourself in that danger…what happens when the shirt rips?..you said it…it will crush you… and f*** your ass up. So be my guest, use the gear.

But honestly, your profile says you’ve only been lifting for two years, so how much do you really know??? You talk like you’re an expert. At least I admit that I’m a beginner, even though I do know quite about competitions.

[/quote]

Firstly, I haven’t updated my profile in about a year.

Secondly, I spent the last 12 months training with the strongest guys in Ireland. I liftet out on a 240kg 2 board press yesterday to a 90kg guy.

I’ve helped the same guy (a 310+ squatter) put on his suit, I’ve helped wrap the knees on several 3x bw squatters, I’ve set the shirt on these guys too. I train with them. I hear what they have to say and I learn from it.

And lack of intelligence…? Please. It’s called balls. And a desire to push the limits. But some people are happy to just never take it to the next level. I just can’t understand that.

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A HUGE point people seem to miss (or just blantanly ignore) is that when you ask a power lifter his best lifts you enter HIS world. The dark shady or equpiment and sometimes even cover your ears now drugs!

You don’t ask a sprinter what his 100 time is in spikes but he still tells you that time because it’s how he’s judged in comp. And if you wask him how fast he can run it in ordinary shoes he’s probably respond “don’t know, don’t care”.

Would you accuse him of artifically decreasing his times to impress people? Do you think he cares if you’re impressed?

Now… think about that in a powerlifting context. I know someone will reply with the same old tired argument but I’m beyond caring about the stupid arguments that come up on this site weekly.

It’s just a shame newbs see this and can’t amke up their own mind.

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[quote]Hanley wrote:
Another retarded thread… Great.

Try this next time you’re in the gym. Get on the bench, work up to a 1RM on 3 boards. See how much heavier this weight feels…? And how hard it is to support it…? Now imagine having trying to support even more weight than that. That’s what equipped guys have to do.

It takes balls to lift off a weight you know could easily crush you. I think alot of people are afraid of this.

I don’t see any equipped lifters ranting on about raw guys. It’s always the other way around. It’s actually funny how the majority of people who start and add to these threads have never competed and don’t even understand what it’s about. (btw, you’re not asking questions to learn if you’ve already made up your mind on what you think)

Look at Mendy. Biggest raw and equipped bench. I don’t think anything else needs to be said.[/quote]

Mendy’s the freaking man!!!

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Could anyone that is against using a shirt please tell me who holds the Raw record, then do some research as to who holds the overall bench press record?
To save you the time of looking it up heres a link that may help: Bench press - Wikipedia

48

To clarify things, I was lifting in the raw division at the meet and even though I didn’t compete againist the guy, I didn’t get outbenched by the guy. Bottom line, if he can’t get 60 pds less than what I benched in the meet off his chest in the warmup room, he can’t outbench me, and lets say from your train of thought he did, maybe he did, but he sure as hell isn’t stronger than me. Who said equipped guys don’t work as hard as raw guys? I always hear the “a shirt doesn’t magically add 100 pds” argument. We know this, we aren’t questioning that. I know you work hard and it takes time to learn shirt use, but the fact of the matter is we question the human strength without the outside assistance of bench shirts. A shirt may add pounds but not actual strength. Oh I almost forgot to combat the “belt and wraps isn’t raw” argument, I wear a belt(I don’t wear wraps) for support and yes I can lift more weight with a belt, but it is for support I promise you, trust me on this it is my opinion that a weight belt is necessary for heavy deadlifting and squatting. I can understand some people wearing single ply for support, but if you are wearing denim, open back, double ply material, it isn’t for support, it is for adding pounds.

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[quote]jumper wrote:
To clarify things, I was lifting in the raw division at the meet and even though I didn’t compete againist the guy, I didn’t get outbenched by the guy. Bottom line, if he can’t get 60 pds less than what I benched in the meet off his chest in the warmup room, he can’t outbench me, and lets say from your train of thought he did, maybe he did, but he sure as hell isn’t stronger than me. Who said equipped guys don’t work as hard as raw guys? I always hear the “a shirt doesn’t magically add 100 pds” argument. We know this, we aren’t questioning that. I know you work hard and it takes time to learn shirt use, but the fact of the matter is we question the human strength without the outside assistance of bench shirts. A shirt may add pounds but not actual strength. Oh I almost forgot to combat the “belt and wraps isn’t raw” argument, I wear a belt(I don’t wear wraps) for support and yes I can lift more weight with a belt, but it is for support I promise you, trust me on this it is my opinion that a weight belt is necessary for heavy deadlifting and squatting. I can understand some people wearing single ply for support, but if you are wearing denim, open back, double ply material, it isn’t for support, it is for adding pounds. [/quote]

I didn’t know you were lifting in the raw division. I jumped to the conclusion that you were competing directly with those who were shirted.

I agree with your post and personally favor raw meets, because that is what I believe more in, and it’s what I’m personally better at. I plan on competing in both though, in many different federations.

I also know that wearing the belt gives me extra pounds in my squat and deadlift, but I think the support benefit is greater than the extra pounds lifted benefit, so I will find raw meets that allow a belt (which all of the ones I’ve heard about do).

There needs to be less separation in powerlifting it’s self, and in weight training sports in general IMO.

We should be supporting eachother in all of the meets we compete in. Nothing wrong with a little friendly competition and challenging one to lift the way you do, and vice versa.

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[quote]Hanley wrote:
halfpintdd wrote:
Hanley wrote:

It takes balls to lift off a weight you know could easily crush you. I think alot of people are afraid of this.

No, I think it’s a lack of intelligence actually. If you can not physically lift the weight without gear, than why would you want to put yourself in that danger…what happens when the shirt rips?..you said it…it will crush you… and f*** your ass up. So be my guest, use the gear.

But honestly, your profile says you’ve only been lifting for two years, so how much do you really know??? You talk like you’re an expert. At least I admit that I’m a beginner, even though I do know quite about competitions.

Firstly, I haven’t updated my profile in about a year.

Secondly, I spent the last 12 months training with the strongest guys in Ireland. I liftet out on a 240kg 2 board press yesterday to a 90kg guy.

I’ve helped the same guy (a 310+ squatter) put on his suit, I’ve helped wrap the knees on several 3x bw squatters, I’ve set the shirt on these guys too. I train with them. I hear what they have to say and I learn from it.

And lack of intelligence…? Please. It’s called balls. And a desire to push the limits. But some people are happy to just never take it to the next level. I just can’t understand that.

[/quote]
I need some balls like you and a desire to push the limits. Lets see I will take my strength, or excuse me, MY LIFTS to the next level by buying AND LEARNING TO USE a shirt and suits. I know a shirt doesn’t magically add 100 pds but with hard work it can.

I want be stronger but I will be able to lift more and say I can outbench someone who can do 450 raw even though I can’t do that much without the shirt but with it I can do 60-100 pds more with it, so I can outbench that weakling who is scared to push the limits.

Then just to be a real powerlifter I will shave my head, grow a goatee, wear a beanie hat with flames on it, and call myself an outlaw. I also have to make sure I squat higher than IPF, AAU, USPF, RAW standards, because they don’t know how to push the limits, EVEN THOUGH THEY STILL MAY BE STRONGER THAN ME.

PUSHING THE LIMITS DESTROYS THE CREDIBILITY OF POWERLIFTING!
Just my opinion!

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This is the old “shirts vs skins” debate. But this has more to do with the advancement and impact of technology (both drugs and engineering) in any sport. As long as there is a competitive disclipline, people will push the limit as much as possible.

Our individual opinions may vary, and we can argue ad nauseum, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s happenning.

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JUST TO CLARIFY:

  1. NOBODY IS SAYING GEARED LIFTERS DON’T WORK AS HARD AS RAW LIFTERS(I don’t know where this came from). WE KNOW YOU WORK JUST AS HARD IF NOT HARDER THAN RAW LIFTERS. WE ARE NOT QUESTIONING THAT.

  2. WHAT WE ARE QUESTIONING IS THE ACTUAL STRENGTH VERSUS ASSISTED STRENGTH.

  3. I DON’T HAVE ANYTHING AGAINIST GEARED LIFTING. I JUST THINK THE ONLY WAY TO JUDGE THE TRUE STRENGTH OF ATHLETES IS BY LIMITING THE EQUIPTMENT TO SUPPORTING ONLY(belt), NOT ASSISTING(shirts,suits).

P.S. There is nothing wrong with arguing every once in a while. If it makes you happy to wear gear, great, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it and vice versa.

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To me this is like a high jumper coming up to a pole vaulter and saying why do you guys cheat with those poles to go up higher in the air. Why don’t you just do it without the pole like we do. Then the pole vaulter says back. Hey dude this is what I like to do, I’m not interested in becoming a high jumper, you stick with your thing and I’ll do mine.

The thing is geared and raw lifting are very different sports too.

I started to realize this when everytime I train to maximize my press in a shirt my raw max goes down. And if I train for some time without my shirt my shirt max of course goes down. So they may appear the same but they are not.

There’s no problem if we just try to give each other respect where respect is due. What happens on the internet wars is you’ve got someone that’s lifted very hard for 18+ years fighting hard for ever 5lbs. gain they ever made being told usually by someone that has much less experience they have not worked hard because they use gear that’s allowed in their federation you can understand where someone might get a little ticked.

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And as far as olympic lifting goes I could make the arguement that they are inflating their numbers by bending at the knees and dipping under the bar as they are pressing it over their head. I could say they are trying to inflate their numbers artifically by doing that and they really couldn’t press that much if they did it without knee band.

I never say that but you see how far we can take this if I apply those same theories without bias across sports.

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[quote]rniel wrote:
To me this is like a high jumper coming up to a pole vaulter and saying why do you guys cheat with those poles to go up higher in the air. Why don’t you just do it without the pole like we do. Then the pole vaulter says back. Hey dude this is what I like to do, I’m not interested in becoming a high jumper, you stick with your thing and I’ll do mine.

The thing is geared and raw lifting are very different sports too.

I started to realize this when everytime I train to maximize my press in a shirt my raw max goes down. And if I train for some time without my shirt my shirt max of course goes down. So they may appear the same but they are not.

There’s no problem if we just try to give each other respect where respect is due. What happens on the internet wars is you’ve got someone that’s lifted very hard for 18+ years fighting hard for ever 5lbs. gain they ever made being told usually by someone that has much less experience they have not worked hard because they use gear that’s allowed in their federation you can understand where someone might get a little ticked.[/quote]

Please,tell me, who is saying they didn’t work hard? NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. Where does that come from?

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[quote]rniel wrote:
And as far as olympic lifting goes I could make the arguement that they are inflating their numbers by bending at the knees and dipping under the bar as they are pressing it over their head. I could say they are trying to inflate their numbers artifically by doing that and they really couldn’t press that much if they did it without knee band.

I never say that but you see how far we can take this if I apply those same theories without bias across sports.[/quote]

They are not inflating the numbers artificially because they are doing it without the use of exterior equiptment.
I hope you were kidding when you tried to compare oly lifting with geared lifting. I hope you were kidding, if not:
Hello, my name is planet earth, have we met yet?

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Great response!!

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
halfpintdd wrote:
…what are your feelings about people using bench shirts to be able to bench more than they can squat?

I think they need a better squat suit.[/quote]

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“They are not inflating the numbers artificially because they are doing it without the use of exterior equiptment.”

Ok so using what you said. If I set the bar in the rack on the pins and press it 1" is that a legitimate bench. I won’t use any equipment for that so if that’s the only criteria you have to follow then my 1" bench is legit.

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[quote]rniel wrote:
“They are not inflating the numbers artificially because they are doing it without the use of exterior equiptment.”

Ok so using what you said. If I set the bar in the rack on the pins and press it 1" is that a legitimate bench. I won’t use any equipment for that so if that’s the only criteria you have to follow then my 1" bench is legit.[/quote]

No that would be a racklockout, not a bench press. Did I say that was the only criteria you have to follow? Did I? No I didn’t. You are making absurd comments and by the way pressing off pins would be using exterior equiptment(the pins would be the exterior equiptment). You are making no sense, whatsoever and definitely not helping your case. Are you being serious, you have to be joking, right?

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[quote]rniel wrote:
And as far as olympic lifting goes I could make the arguement that they are inflating their numbers by bending at the knees and dipping under the bar as they are pressing it over their head. I could say they are trying to inflate their numbers artifically by doing that and they really couldn’t press that much if they did it without knee band.

I never say that but you see how far we can take this if I apply those same theories without bias across sports.[/quote]

rniel, please elaborate on this theory of yours! I always knew those oly lifters were up to something. I just wasn’t smart enough to figure out what. So by bending their knees and dipping under the bar as they are pressing the bar overhead, you,and by you I mean rniel, could make the argument they are ARTIFICIALLY trying to inflate their numbers.

I would love to hear this argument, please elaborate. Your theories have been quite entertaining so far, without substance, but entertaining none the less.

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[quote]halfpintdd wrote:
I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I’ve seen it come up a few times lately…what are your feelings about people using bench shirts to be able to bench more than they can squat?

I think its a bunch of crap and not real lifting. If you have to load the bar so damn heavy just to touch your chest, you don’t have any business trying to lift so much.

Being able to add 50-100 pounds, or more, to your bench doesn’t say anything about your strength, it merely reflects the quality of the shirt you’re wearing.

Anyway, I’m sure this will chap some hides, but I’m just curious to see what other people think about it. [/quote]

I assure you that when you describe people’s hobby as “a bunch of crap”, you will get some “defensive” answers. I do not think you are a bad person, but this was a poor choice of words if your intention was to not attack geared powerlifters for their choice of hobby. Nothing wrong with attacking people, mind you, but don’t expect civil responses when your initial post lacks civility.

Your husband’s lifts are extremely impressive. An 1830 total in just wraps is extremely strong for the USAPL regardless of weight class, and 500 pound raw benches in drug tested feds are quite rare. Unfortunately the USAPL allows restrictive gear that can add 300-400lbs on one’s total, so he will have to contend to losing to people who are weaker than him raw if he continues competing there.

I used to be a geared lifter, but now lift raw out of personal preference.

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[quote]jumper wrote:
My other 2 cents: If someone can outbench you in a shirt and can’t do it raw then they can’t outbench you, bottom line. Basically that means if you need assistance to outbench me then you can’t outbench me. Lets call it what it is assisted lifting.[/quote]

You realize your own post provides answers to your questions, right? You give geared lifting a special title - assisted lifting. Why? Because you have realized the fundamental issue here - geared lifting is a different sport from raw lifting. However you failed to make the next realization. If you have two different sports, how do you compare the results of each? Bottom line, you can’t. So you comparing your raw benching to someone’s assisted lifting is a fallacious situation from the start.

A question that clearly points this out is what if that person benches more with assistance than you do with assistance? If you are both getting the same assistance, then is that person not stronger? That person IS stronger - but only in that movement. Strength is only relevant to specific activities, and since raw and geared lifting are different activities (as you pointed out), you cannot compare the strength in each.

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A raw bench is harder than with a shirt on and it is a purer measure of strength

A strict military press is harder than a clean and jerk and it is a purer measure of strength

While both statements are true. I’m not advocating that olympic lifters need to change their rules to fit my definitions of what I think true strength is so the same goes for my sport.

[quote]jumper wrote:
rniel wrote:
And as far as olympic lifting goes I could make the arguement that they are inflating their numbers by bending at the knees and dipping under the bar as they are pressing it over their head. I could say they are trying to inflate their numbers artifically by doing that and they really couldn’t press that much if they did it without knee band.

I never say that but you see how far we can take this if I apply those same theories without bias across sports.

rniel, please elaborate on this theory of yours! I always knew those oly lifters were up to something. I just wasn’t smart enough to figure out what. So by bending their knees and dipping under the bar as they are pressing the bar overhead, you,and by you I mean rniel, could make the argument they are ARTIFICIALLY trying to inflate their numbers.

I would love to hear this argument, please elaborate. Your theories have been quite entertaining so far, without substance, but entertaining none the less.
[/quote]