Hey guys I had a clear idea of what my PCT for 500mg test Enanth. and 300mg Mastabol p/week was going to be but I’ve been reading so many threads with HCG in it its confusing me. I was pretty much set on Nolva/Clomid but now I’m thinking of the test taper etc. Can anyone point me in the right direction? This is my second cycle and last time I used HCG/Nolva.
Much will depend on where you’re at in this current cycle. How many more weeks remain?
I would use the HCG for sure. Nolva/clomid isn’t really that much of a pct. I would only use it for something light like primo or anavar.
[quote]chillain wrote:
Much will depend on where you’re at in this current cycle. How many more weeks remain?
[/quote]
Im at the end of the 4th week. So another 4 to go.
Well then you only have 4 weeks left to use the HCG, if you choose to use it all.
Remember that HCG has no place in PCT. It is used during a cycle or maybe as pre-PCT in a longer cycle, but that’s it.
last time i used it post cycle and i know many who do. in any case my balls haven’t as far as i can see. so can we rule out hcg and just go with clomid/nolva or a test taper?
I am not an HCG fan.
Use the Nolva. I think Nolva and Clomid together is overkill.
Or get some Toremifene.
Whoever said that Nolva/Clomid is not much of a pct should really back that sort of statement up with some evidence.
[quote]bville wrote:
last time i used it post cycle and i know many who do. in any case my balls haven’t as far as i can see. so can we rule out hcg and just go with clomid/nolva or a test taper?[/quote]
Well that just means you know many who are using HCG incorrectly.
It’s simple really: HCG suppresses LH in the male body. So the recovery process simply can’t begin until HCG is out of the picture. Nothing more complicated than that.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I am not an HCG fan. [/quote]
RJ mentions this from time to time. But he doesn’t always mention how he’s already done having kids and how proper testicular function isn’t much of a priority.
Now if either of those things are important to you, it’s a good idea to educate yourself about proper HCG use.
[quote]chillain wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I am not an HCG fan.
RJ mentions this from time to time. But he doesn’t always mention how he’s already done having kids and how proper testicular function isn’t much of a priority.
Now if either of those things are important to you, it’s a good idea to educate yourself about proper HCG use.
[/quote]
My opposition to HCG has nothing to do with my nits being cut.
I just don’t like it.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Why?[/quote]
Show me a study where it assists in bringing a person back to normal, and I will kiss your ass.
All it does is bring up the sperm count. Big fucking whoop. So you can father a child while you are still shut down.
That’s like buying an electric can opener specifically for the POS “knife sharpener” that it has located on the back side.
But that’s just me - if you want to take the shit, knock yourself out.
I think it is important to use as ones testes never have to shutdown and they are ready to go as soon as you make the transition from HCG to LH. A SERM helps switch the LH back on. I think that HCG should be used all through a cycle that shuts down the HPTA. But HCG can be difficult for some to source.
Many guys on TRT take HCG so their testes do not shut down, but many on cycles allow their testes to shutdown. Seems sort of contradictory.
BTW: I would never want to take HCG from China.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Why?
Show me a study where it assists in bringing a person back to normal, and I will kiss your ass.
All it does is bring up the sperm count. Big fucking whoop. So you can father a child while you are still shut down.
That’s like buying an electric can opener specifically for the POS “knife sharpener” that it has located on the back side.
But that’s just me - if you want to take the shit, knock yourself out.
[/quote]
I’ll be back with some studies for you then.
By the way, HCG does not in any way DIRECTLY increase your sperm count.
Here’s a few for you Rainjack. You can easily use Pubmed and find hundreds more.
Don’t really know why you have never seen any studies before or what you are looking for? Many studies done with HCG used to act as LH to stimulate testicle production and growth/ Many studies done with HCG used to act as LH to bring back testicle size/ ETC, ETC, ETC.
By the way HMG (human menopausal hormone) has been shown to directly stimulate sperm production.
Here’s a few resources:
Endocrinology, Vol 132, 763-769
Nature 287, 642 - 643 (16 October 1980)
Arch Dis Child 2000;82:54-58 ( January )
Catt, K. J., Harwood, J. P., Aguilera, G. & Dafau, M. L. Nature 280, 109�??116 (1979). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Labrie, F. et al. Int. J. Androl. Suppl. 2, 303�??314 (1978). | ChemPort |
Sandow, J., von Rechenberg, W., Baeder, C. & Engelbart, K. Int. J. Fert. (in the press).
Sharpe, R. M., Fraser, H. M. & Sandow, J. J. Endocr. 80, 249�??257 (1979). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Fraser, H. M. & Lincoln, G. A. Biol. Reprod. 22, 269�??276 (1980). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Bergquist, C., Nillius, S. J., Bergh, T., Skarin, G. & Wide, L. Acta endocr. copenh. 91, 601�??608 (1979). | ChemPort |
Sharpe, R. M. Nature 286, 12�??14 (1980). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Clayton, R. N., Harwood, J. P. & Catt, K. J. Nature 282, 90�??92 (1979). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Labrie, F. et al. Int. J. Fert. (in the press).
Clayton, R. N., Katikineni, M., Chan, V., Dufau, M. L. & Catt, K. J. Proc. natn. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. (in the press).
Sharpe, R. M. & Fraser, H. M. Biochem. biophys. Res. Commun. 95, 256�??262 (1980). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Arimura, A., Serafini, P., Talbot, S. & Schally, A. V. Biochem. biophys. Res. Commun. 90, 687�??693 (1979). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Hsueh, A. J. W. & Erickson, G. F. Nature 281, 66�??67 (1979). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Sharpe, R. M. Biol. Reprod. 22, 851�??858 (1980). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Sharpe, R. M. J. Reprod. Fert. 55, 365�??371 (1979). | ISI | ChemPort |
Sharpe, R. M. & Setchell, B. P. Int. J. Androl. abstr. (in the press).
Ying, S.-Y. & Guillemin, R. C.r. hebd. Séanc. Acad. Sci., Paris D289, 943�??946 (1979). | ChemPort |
Ying, S.-Y. & Guillemin, R. in Progm. Abstr. Am. Endocrine Soc. Abstr. 158 (June, 1980).
Sharpe, R. M. & McNeilly, A. S. Molec. cell. Endocr. 18, 75�??86 (1980). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Miyachi, Y., Chrambach, A., Mecklenburg, R. & Lipsett, M. B. Endocrinology 92, 1725�??1730 (1973). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Sharpe, R. M., Shahmanesh, M., Ellwood, M. G., Hartog, M. & Brown, P. S. J. Endocr. 65, 265�??273 (1975). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Fraser, H. M. & Sandow, J. J. Endocr. 74, 291�??296 (1977). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
Thanks to TheBeat for listing those references. For whatever reason, there is plenty of confusion (and misinformation about dosing) surrounding HCG. I hope this will clear things up:
OK, so you’re off cycle and everything is working fine. Your hypothalamus is releasing GnRH which tells your pituitary to release LH which then tells your testes to produce test. So far so good.
Then you begin a cycle of AAS. As soon as the body recognizes supraphysiological levels of androgens in the system, it tells the hypothalamus to stop releasing GnRH which in turn tells the pituitary to stop releasing LH. And without any LH, your testes stop producing test. This state of affairs will continue throughout your cycle.
Now in the male body, HCG = LH. So by using it during a cycle, you can override the pituitary’s shutdown commands and “tell” your testes to get back to work (producing test). And since your testes will have been functioning throughout the cycle, post-cycle recovery will happen that much faster. (normally, the hypothalamus (GnRH) and pituitary (LH) resume normal functioning much faster than the testes)
Now after a cycle, the goal is to recover natural production of GnRH, LH, and test levels. Since HCG = LH, you wouldn’t want it at this time since exogenous LH will only encourage the pituitary to halt its own production of LH.
So that is why HCG is recommended during a cycle (to keep the testes from hibernating) and why it interferes with recovery (at the pituitary level of the HPTA).
[quote]chillain wrote:
Thanks to TheBeat for listing those references. For whatever reason, there is plenty of confusion (and misinformation about dosing) surrounding HCG. I hope this will clear things up:
OK, so you’re off cycle and everything is working fine. Your hypothalamus is releasing GnRH which tells your pituitary to release LH which then tells your testes to produce test. So far so good.
Then you begin a cycle of AAS. As soon as the body recognizes supraphysiological levels of androgens in the system, it tells the hypothalamus to stop releasing GnRH which in turn tells the pituitary to stop releasing LH. And without any LH, your testes stop producing test. This state of affairs will continue throughout your cycle.
Now in the male body, HCG = LH. So by using it during a cycle, you can override the pituitary’s shutdown commands and “tell” your testes to get back to work (producing test). And since your testes will have been functioning throughout the cycle, post-cycle recovery will happen that much faster. (normally, the hypothalamus (GnRH) and pituitary (LH) resume normal functioning much faster than the testes)
Now after a cycle, the goal is to recover natural production of GnRH, LH, and test levels. Since HCG = LH, you wouldn’t want it at this time since exogenous LH will only encourage the pituitary to halt its own production of LH.
So that is why HCG is recommended during a cycle (to keep the testes from hibernating) and why it interferes with recovery (at the pituitary level of the HPTA).
[/quote]
Very good and concise summary!!! Some will add that HCG through a cycle is not absolutely necessary, some do ok that way. So while HCG through a cycle looks very convincing, some are not convinced. It is not common practice, but perhaps should be.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Show me a study where it assists in bringing a person back to normal, and I will kiss your ass.
[/quote]
Let me know when your ready Rainjack. Kidding bro. LOL!
I read some of them. I still think HCG is about as important to the HPTA during, or post cycle as the price of tea in China.
But you guys have fun with it.