Zeb–etc.
What about the nutrition of Mr. Boone?
How many calories did he force down his throat to be able to make gains while digging wells in Texas?
I’ve never dug wells in Texas, but I have spent a fair amount of time as a contract archaeologist digging test pits etc, sometimes in the blazing sun in the middle of a cornfield, and I can attest to how draining that kind of work is.
Oh, and I should say also–I’m willing to bet it wasn’t skim milk etc.
Anyone Read the Bob Whelan site? He has got some articles on HIT…is it the jones/mentzer variety, it seems different but I didnt get a chance to read it all.
Splits can be used effectivly I imagine especiall when they dont consist of just chest and bi’s four times a week. Which is the most common program guys at my school are on.
So what do you guys think of trainning to failure?
Joe,
I can tell you one thing, those guys were not afraid to eat. They did not measure their protein scoops to insane fractions (1.41 scoops anyone?). Some of the more bodybuilder-like guys would do the classic bulk and cut…Dave Draper is the perfect example. At one point he was fat, then became skinny, then built himself up, then leaned out, etc. I think Draper looks better than any pro bodybuilder today.
Check out Sergio Olivia…the guy is massive, and often said he built much of his size/strength doing the O-Lifts and what are now known as the Power Lifts. Franco Colombo was a deadlifting machine…and was huge and cut. You can even go back further to guys like John Davis, who as an O-lifter was insanely strong and built like a tank.
David Riegert had traps that could stop traffic. I don’t care if the Soviets were on dope or not, so was everyone else, and those guys were built like tanks while O-lifting. Look at everyone I just named, they all come from different backgrounds. But, what do they all have in common? They worked the entire body hard. They Cleaned, and Deadlifted, and Pressed, and Benched. Sure, some of the bodybuilders did isolation movements, but that was AFTER they built themselves up. If I see one more person post that they are doing cable concentration curls on Back and Bi day, I’ll scream. Go lift a rock, then tell me which exercise works the biceps more.
Sorry, I got all off track there. Those guys ate big. I think it was Dr. Ken who talked about how he made trainees at the Iron Island keep a food log and would check them after hearing guys complain that they “just can’t gain weight, and I eat SOOO much,” but the log revealed that they were eating something like a 1/2 chicken breast and a few fat free cookies. haha.
He also talked about how he watches young guys measure out their protein scoops like a pharmacist, as if they could overdose.
The problem is, and I may take some heat for this, but I’m not running for Miss Congeniality here so fuck it…most of the newer people, and some of the older ones, especially those who do split routines, just do not train hard enough, don’t eat big enough, and worry too much about supplements. I love it when a 140lb guy who is Pressing 100lbs preaches about how Surge is the be all, end all of training. I’m not putting Surge down, but I think that is something you add once your training is pretty close to optimal. IMO, one has no business drinking Surge (or taking HOT-ROX, MAG-10, Creatine, etc) until one is eating properly and lifting heavily.
If you are doing isolation movements in a split routine, forget it. Even some of the guys I see post here who do the bigger movements rarely work them hard enough. Sure, they’ll post about “busting their asses” but most have no idea what it’s all about. They may sweat, grunt, and feel tired, but, you get the same thing from sex.
I once saw John McCallum get knocked on this forum. For shame. The young lifters should read McCallum, if for no other reason, than his focus on gut-busting hard work.
“Muscle is not built on fresh air and good intentions.” -JM
[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
Joe,
I can tell you one thing, those guys were not afraid to eat. They did not measure their protein scoops to insane fractions (1.41 scoops anyone?). Some of the more bodybuilder-like guys would do the classic bulk and cut…Dave Draper is the perfect example. At one point he was fat, then became skinny, then built himself up, then leaned out, etc. I think Draper looks better than any pro bodybuilder today.
Check out Sergio Olivia…the guy is massive, and often said he built much of his size/strength doing the O-Lifts and what are now known as the Power Lifts. Franco Colombo was a deadlifting machine…and was huge and cut. You can even go back further to guys like John Davis, who as an O-lifter was insanely strong and built like a tank.
David Riegert had traps that could stop traffic. I don’t care if the Soviets were on dope or not, so was everyone else, and those guys were built like tanks while O-lifting. Look at everyone I just named, they all come from different backgrounds. But, what do they all have in common? They worked the entire body hard. They Cleaned, and Deadlifted, and Pressed, and Benched. Sure, some of the bodybuilders did isolation movements, but that was AFTER they built themselves up. If I see one more person post that they are doing cable concentration curls on Back and Bi day, I’ll scream. Go lift a rock, then tell me which exercise works the biceps more.
[/quote]
Wasnt there a thread a while ago about how power cleans where not good for building muscle?
I was surprised people thought that, because of the Oly lifters I meet in WA and all the ones I have seen pics of Had HUGE traps and where very muscular. Not freaky Ronnie Coleman huge but built like tanks none the less.
I dont think there is any way to stop these fucks from curling day in day out its annoying.
Hey Cazzo–Sergio was it. Just it.
I love Franco–us short guys gotta hang together!–and Draper had some insane development…but Sergio was amazing.
Yeah, all those guys.
The best part about them was that they just looked strong.
Like the pictures of Brad Cordozza, he looks powerful as hell.
But all the pro bodybuilders today just make me yawn.
And I’m pretty sure neither Sergio or Franco ever ate .9 of a banana in their life–unless maybe there was a rotten speck in the other .1!
"Short, Sweet, and Effective
by Brooks D. Kubik
Many modern trainees believe that training programs have to consist of day-long marathons where you tackle every exercise under the sun. This approach all too often applies as much to the powerlifters and Olympic lifters as it does to bodybuilders. However, it wasn’t always that way. There was a time when some of the most successful men in the Iron Game used relatively short, abbreviated training programs.
Here’s a real life example.
Norb Schemansky was one of the very best Olympic weightlifters in history: a U.S. National Champion and record holder, a World Champion and record holder, and an Olympic Champion and record holder, and–get this–a medallist in not one … not two … not three … but FOUR separate Olympics. And two of those Olympic performances were after a pair of severe back surgeries! Had Schemansky not injured his back and missed the 1956 Olympics, he might well have medalled in FIVE Olympics (for some of you “know it all’s” big mouths, and there are a few, that would be four more Olympics than you and I have medalled in!).
Schemansky’s best lift may have been the snatch, which he executed in breathtakingly beautiful split style. He set a world record in the lift in his early 40’s!
How did Schemansky train the snatch?
Try this:
That’s it, folks. The entire snatch program. One 5/4/3/2/1 sequence. A total of 15 reps. Five sets. Perhaps 30 minutes of training time.
After several weeks of the above program, Schemansky switched to a snatch program that included the split. Here it is:
185 x 2
200 x 2
220 x 2
240 x 2 (three sets)
260 x 2
This one is a LONG program compared to the first schedule–it consists of a whopping total of SEVEN sets.
Schemansky would follow the second program for a few weeks, and then move on to the final, longest routine, which consisted of a marathon EIGHT set session:
185 x 5 (warm up)
205 x 3
225 x 2
240 x 2 (two sets)
260 x 2 (two sets)
270 x 2
Short, hard, heavy sessions worked fine for Norb Schemansky. Maybe they’ll work just as well for YOU!"
By the way T-Nation if you ever saw this guy “Norm Schemansky” you would indeed be impressed! He looks like he could lift up the rear end of an SUV! He didn’t get to look that way by doing Preacher curls. But, if you saw his biceps you would might think that he actually specalized in arm training. He got that way from lifting hard and heavy with fullbody movements.
Here is another great quote from one of the best:
“There is no secret to training on the press–or any other lift, for that matter. It merely requires a little patience, a little imagination, and a good deal of sweat (above all else) with as heavy a weight as you can handle.”
John Davis
(Davis was one of the greatest Olympic weightlifters the USA ever produced–a many time US national champion, North American Champion, Pan American games Champion, a multi time world champion at 181 and in the heavyweight class, a two time Olympic Games champion, and a multi time world record holder-Dinasaur traing).
More to follow!
THE “5 X 5” PRINCIPLE.
By: J.V. Askem
The 5X5 training approach has been around for decades and has proven to be effective for many types of strength athletes. Originally popularized by bodybuilding legend Reg Park in the 1950’s, I’ve found that the 5X5 can also be effective when used on compound assistance exercises for Olympic lifters. It’s also effective for short cycles, 3 to 5 weeks, for Power lifting movements.
THREE APPROACHES!!!
Light weight for speed: 5 sets of 5 reps with no more than 60 seconds rest between sets. 60% to 65% of your 1 RM. is recommended. NOTE: It’s important that you move the weight a fast as possible with 100% effort on each rep. Maximum bar velocity is important to get the optimum use of your fast twitch muscle fibers.
Medium weight: 5 to 6 sets of 5 to 6 reps. Work up over the first 2 to 3 sets, then do 2 to 3 sets of with the same work weight. 75% to 85% is recommended.
Heaviest weight: 5 to 6 sets working up to limit “all-out” set of 3 to 5 reps on the last set. 85% to 95% is recommended.
I’ve used all three of these approaches to the 5X5 principle for many years and have found them to be ideal for trainees to train compound movements. However, I don’t recommend this for “multiple compound” movements (Olympic lifts)
Try doing the same compound movement twice in one week with one of each from the 3 choices above.
I wholeheartedly agree with you guys on this stuff, but I do feel it’s overkill. Everything being said is basically what T-Nation stands for, we are the antithesis of the juiced out frat boy doing biceps curls in the squat rack. All of these articles basically reiterate Dan John’s programs, or the “One Lift a Day”. However, some people might take this philosophy too far, myself included. I’m following a Westside program now and am finally forcing myself to do abs. I always thought they were just pretty boy muscles. And on Max Effort bench days, I do skull crushers. They’re no triceps kickbacks, but the top of the bench press is mostly triceps, so sometimes I do isolate the triceps. Lifting, just like everything else, is a balance.
Laxxone:
Very well stated!
Variety is indeed the spice of life. No one is condemning any sort of variation from the basics, and what has built great bodies for many years.
This thread is simply here to reinforce what many of us know, but too few new trainees realize!
There is nothing we can learn from these people. They’re old!
Great stuff! I stopped the “split” training years ago. After using Renegade Training, 5x5 and CW’s programs, I stick to full-body or upper/lower body splits and the benefits are worth it.
Sure, I don’t get the “pump” that I used to get, but I’m bigger and stronger than before. So it can’t be all that bad. 
When I need a pump, I bust out some pushups, chins and a few other exercises before I hit the beach or pool. That way, I can look good for all the high school girls! Ha!
[quote]NateN wrote:
There is nothing we can learn from these people. They’re old![/quote]
Yeah right! There’s nothing new under the sun! All this info here is just repeated.
Another interesting article from days gone by:
A UNIQUE STRENGTH BUILDING SYSTEM
How to Develop Strength As Well as Muscle
By David Gentle
First things first, to develop muscles to their maximum size heavy poundages must be used when training, and in good style. This is easily proved if you study the training poundages used by all of the top stars. Without fail they all use very respectable weights in their training. If they had been content to use just light weights in their exercise, then they could have never developed their muscles to the maximum.
When reading about the poundages that the top stars use, you may come to the conclusion that they are naturally stronger than you, but that is not true. In the vast majority of cases, the strength to use heavy weights in exercising was DEVELOPED.
For the bodybuilder, strength is a means to an end. He simply needs to employ very heavy poundages in his training in order to develop his muscularity to a maximum. Anyone content with exercising in a slap-dash manner with light weights will never reach his full potential development. If a trainee wishes to get the best results out or his training then he must really fight with the weights, forcing out the last few reps. He must learn how to keep adding weights whenever possible, so as to make the workouts progressive. You MUST learn to use respectable poundages in your workouts. If two bodybuilders of around the same bodyweight trained together on the same exercise, one using say 50 kilos and one using 100 kilos, you can bet your life that the bloke using the heaviest weight has the best build. So your object is to find a way to develop this extra strength to enable you to use heavier weights for utmost development. To do this, a progressive strength increasing system must be followed to the letter.
The normal reps used in most bodybuilding movements are around eight to twenty. Whilst it is true that for a while, especially beginners, weights can be added fairly often and thus make progression, it can be a very slow process. We want quicker results. For strength, low reps are proven to be of more value. Unfortunately low reps don?t normally appear to be the best for muscular increase, and that was our original target. So the answer is a unique way of getting the best of both worlds. Follow it closely.
Let us suppose that you wish to increase your poundage on the popular bodybuilding exercise. The bench press and we will say to make it easy to understand, that you are handling 50 kilos for ten repetitions. Your target is to use 70 kilos for ten reps (just an example remember, use the appropriate weights to suit your own case).
First workout
Load the bar up to your maximum for ten reps and perform 3 sets of 10 reps.
Second workout
Add 2 kilos to the bar, perform as many reps as possible with this new weight. The extra weight will probably make you drop a couple of reps, anyway the target you must set in this workout is 4 sets of 8 reps, always of course doing your own maximum.
Third workout
Again add another 2 kilos to the bar, again tying to do as many reps as possible. This time aim for 5 sets of 6 reps.
Fourth workout
Add yet another 2 kilos and do 7 sets of 4 reps. After you have gradually decreased, the number of reps down to three or four, continued
cont’d…
you then start again at 3 sets of 10 reps, but this time with a difference. This time you start you 10 reps with 52 kilos. This means a 2 kilo increase has been observed. Providing you have trained correctly on the system, you will be quite capable of doing this. The whole procedure is then repeated adding 2 kilos each time you cut down the reps until you are on the low reps again.
With our example, the next start at ten reps would be of course 3 sets of 10 reps with 54 kilos and so on until you reach your target.
The following chart should make it clear:
Order of Poundage of Poundage Reps Sets
Order of Poundage Reps Sets
You would then commence again
Order of Poundage Reps Sets
And so on, until you have reached the sought after poundage for ten repetitions.
Although you will not always feel as strong some nights as on others, you must try to squeeze out the required number of reps as near as possible to the scheduled. One dropped rep now and again will not hurt but try not to make it a habit. When you are on the low rep days to prevent injuries it is advisable to do a few light repetitions as a warm-up.
You cannot of course carry on doing this schedule indefinitely and at a later date an increase of 1 kilo or even half a kilo will be enough for added resistance. Finally do not attempt to do this system of strength training with more than one exercise at a time, as one exercise is enough to take all of your concentration.
If you tackle this idea with a positive approach then you cannot fail to make progress, why not give it a try?
I like these articles, actually. The first real books on lifting I read were Super Squats, Kubik’s book, etc.
They’re still nutty old people…
[quote]BRUCELEEWANNABE wrote:
NateN wrote:
There is nothing we can learn from these people. They’re old!
Yeah right! There’s nothing new under the sun! All this info here is just repeated.[/quote]
ZEB and others,
Good thread, I think it’s a great idea to revisit the wisdom of the pre-steroid “Golden Age” of bodybuilding. But that beind said, I have one problem with what these guys preached. Compound movements, shorter workouts, learning to really eat, are all well and good, but what about the question of failure? Thanks to Ironmind I’ve had McCallum and Kubik sitting on my bookshelf for a while, read most of both, and they both, especially Kubik, seem to fall into the Dr. Leistner, Kim Wood, etc., HIT camp. Kubik talks about just a couple of singles, done to gut-busting intensity, being the whole workout for a day.
Now, there’s no denying the man’s accomplishments, and Dinosaur Training is a great book, but I doubt I would achieve much on a routine like that. I know for a fact that I get much stronger when I’m not training to failure. Size gain is more debatable. Thoughts?
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Hackenschmidt/wtl/wtl-intro.htm
George Hackenschmidt’s “The Way To Live” - the full book online with general well-being and training info and some interesting records for the more unusual lifts.
Also check out the rest of http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/ which contains loads of stuff about the old greats.
I just wanted to say that this is one heck of a thread and more people need to see it. Keep the good stuff coming!
I saw this on another forum, and thought it would fit right here perfectly:
The Gospel according to WBM
WildBoarMan is here!
Listen, for god’s sake!!!
Turn off this blue text. It is giving me a headache. Are you fuckers color blind?
A question to the monitors…where the hell did you find some of these people? They do no research and they want to be spoon fed a goddamn routine and probably
want a personal trainer to hold their hands while they do it.
It’s quite simple, listen carefully, fellas.
Don’t be a pussy.
Let me explain:
Q: Wah! My legs won’t grow! What can I do WildBoarMan?
A: Quit being a pussy and squat. Squat high reps, squat low rep, squat your fucking sister, but squat. If you have energy left over, then do some additional leg work. Like stiff leg deadlifts. Do these progressively heavier, and one day, you too, will be able to hoof a 200lb boar 2 miles through the woods to your car.
Q: Wah! My biceps are too small! What can I do WildBoarMan?
A: Quit being a pussy and do some high rep breathing squats. Just use your bodyweight and puff out 3 breaths between each rep. When you are done, pound your fucking biceps by doing 2 exercise: curl grip pull ups and dumbbell hammer curls. The breathing squats are a proven method to fire up your metabolism, and following those with tough biceps work is the way to get them to grow.
Q: Wah! My lower back hurts! What can I do WildBoarMan?
A: Quit being a pussy!!! First of stretch your fucking hams, glutes, lower back, and calves. Then do some goddamn lower back work. Let’s make it simple for you pussies. Just fucking deadlift, high reps, low reps, I don’t care, just do it heavily and progressiveley. Do good mornings, do stiff legs (which, incidentally when done right will stretch your glutes and hams as well)
Q: Wah! I need a routine! What can I do WildBoarMan?
A: Quit being a (all together now) PUSSY! Here is a routine that will make you a fucking man.
Session 1:
a. Standing overhead press: 5x5 a la 2 warmup sets and 3 hard fucking sets of 5. When you get all 3, move the weight up.
b. Standing curls: Do 5 sets of 5, just like above, supersetted with the presses. Maury did these and he was definitely not a pussy, even though he got plenty.
c. Squats: 1-3 warmups the 1x20. Yes, these are breathing squats done with a
weight you can only do 10 with. Trust me, you will be able to do this if you are not a pussy.
d. Stiff leg Dead: 2x15. Yes girls, this does hurt. But keep at it.
e. Ab work: Work it hard, don’t be a _____. (fill in the fucking blank, numbnuts!)
Session 2:
a. Deadlifts: 5x5, see the guidelines above
b. Bench press or dips: 5x5, see above
c. Dumbbell Rows: 3x10-15
d. Chins: 3 sets for maximum reps. I know, too much back work…well, you need this much goddamn back work if you don’t want to look like a pussy! Plus, chins help to decompress the spine after heavy lifting a bit.
e. Ab work…as above.
Do one of these programs every 3 days or so. Work it hard, and don’t be a big
fucking pussy, and maybe you’re 175 lb skinny-fat asses will fill out into a nice manly physique.
Hope this helps!
WildBoarMan