Westside for Olympic Lifting

I think i said it before on another thread but the russian style is likely a better approach for the casual (non-international competitor) athlete.

That being said, both coaches and lifters need a level of awareness when it comes to programming training. a coach should eventually come to know how his athletes respond to different levels of volume and intensity.

just because a lifter doesnt make hard progress with specific volume/intesity periods doesn’t mean he cant make progress at all. some lifters might make better gains packing more intensity into smaller blocks (2 weeks) and then deloading more (once every 3 weeks).

So i’d say a coaches awareness of how to make a certain athlete succeed who does not prosper on the standard program is the sign of a good coach. I would say it pays to keep more athletes in your pool and keep them healthy for a number of reasons. What if they are a late bloomer and surpass the guys that made it through the standard program? What if all that athlete needed to become a success was more attentive specific programming?

Biology and human physiology are fickle and random things sometimes and it makes sense to tailor programs and keep athletes healthy. So id say there’s merit to doing more than filtering genetic freaks. And it may just be that certain people respond freakishly to certain programming whereas others will respond just as freakishly to another program.

bullet point is that there really is no one “best” program no matter how many coaches are using it and no matter how many freaks it produces.

In the present we think we have it figured out, yet we always look into the past and laugh at how wrong we were then. will the current method of coaching end up being the “low-fat diet” in a decade? Who knows.

-chris

I think a few things that often get missed when talking about Abadjiev’s methodology are:

  1. It’s not a cookie cutter approach applied all lifters in the same manner - there’s a tendency in its critics to concentrate on the letter of the law and not the spirit. If a particular weakness cannot be adequately addressed by doing the lifts themselves then other lifts CAN be incorporated for a short period. The fact that everyone on the 98 Bulgarian tape is only doing the comp lifts plus squats (and Boevski is back squatting, just like Chakarov and Botev did, contrary to the generally circulated idea that Abadjiev rejected back squats entirely) only tells you that elite Bulgarians don’t really have any technical issues that can’t be resolved by doing the comp lifts themselves. It says nothing about how he approached the training of a young, novice lifter.

  2. On novice lifters: if you’ve seen Naim’s workouts from his first 4 years of training you’ll know that snatch/C&J/front squat was only half the equation, and he was also doing back squats, rack jerks, jerk drives, jumps, pulls, lifts from blocks, plus power variants.

  3. The elite guys would complete a snatch session in 15 minutes, then rest for 30-60 mins, have a smoke and something to eat, before coming back to do their C&J in 15 mins. Over the course of the day they’d spend just over 2 hours training. The rest was spent resting, eating, listening to music, or attending lectures.

  4. Training multiple times a day was as much about necessity as it was about effectiveness. Abadjiev introduced it as a way of keeping his lifters occupied and under his control, so they didn’t spend their time drinking or doing other counterproductive things. Multiple daily sessions were introduced to a lifter progressively over a large number of years. Ivan wasn’t just hammering little kids to see which one cracked first.

  5. There’s a lot of talk about assumed injury rates, often based on the idea that “no one could possibly do all that and not die”, and yet the top lifters of Ivan’s era all had competitive, World class, senior careers in excess of 10 years. It also assumes that injury is the reason why most lifters don’t make it to the top, rather than because the top of the game is inhabited by fearless ultra-hard bastards, and anyone who wants to compete on their level has to be able to withstand that kind of psychological pressure in addition to putting up huge numbers.

  6. A max lift is not necessarily an absolute, balls-to-the-wall, max lift. Workouts tend to be based off a max that can be lifted without extreme arousal. Being able to put up numbers very close to absolute max, without extreme arousal is something Ivan’s approach fosters very well. Hence why Vanev can clean 210kg five times and yet remain calm and unphased despite missing the jerk every time (at the time it was 2.5kg over the WR). One part of the Bulgarians’ comp success stems from the fact that the numbers they were attempting in competition were almost always much lower than what they’d hit in training. Ivan’s reasoning was that if in training you only hit numbers 2.5kg above what your competitors might do all it needs is for a lifter to have a bad night’s sleep or get a bit of a cold and they’re suddenly in real trouble.

My current line of thinking is that the thing Steve Gough/Mike Burgener loosely called the “Americanized Bulgarian” system is the way to go, although it’s not so much Americanized as an application of the spirit of Ivan’s philosophy rather than the letter of the law. So workouts are based on snatch, C&J and front and back squats, and the emphasis is on going heavy for that day. If a lifter is moving well they might carry on a little further and hit a 95-100%+ lift, but if they’re moving poorly they might drop down and then work back up, or drop down and get some volume in, or just end it there. That forms the basis of every proper workout, and “rest days” will tend to involve either pulls, power variants, or lighter full lifts in the 80-90% range. What else is added to the workout depends entirely on what the most pressing weakness is for that particular lifter. Lifters rest for 20-30 minutes between the snatch and C&J and squats. There is no prep phase, and no comp phase. Volume is moderated according to what individual lifters can tolerate, and performance in previous sessions.

I see little value in blanket prescriptions, particularly for assistance lifts like pressing, except for absolute novices with no residual strength or athletic ability.

Agreed. All this is very fair. And I’m not hating on the Bulgarian system at all–I just think that we’re mostly exposed to the training they do at the higher levels of sport mastery, so we miss the developmental programming and end up trying to emulate what world champions are doing without their years of preparation.

I too like Burgener’s “Bulgarian” system; it was good for a consistent 2.5kg/month on my comp lifts, even when I was training for 4 months without a coach.

Yup. Hope no one thought that I was bashing the bulg either (Ha. It’s what I do too). And I know its by no means a blanket program (even though that’s how i kind of made it out be up there).

I was trying to respond to the previous posts where the claim was that the system was a freak filter and that guys who didnt work well with ME all the time would be weeded out. I suppose I was trying to say that IF that were the case then I think it would be due to dogmatic coaching as opposed to poor programming.

It was also a lot of thinking out loud at your expense only to come to the conclusion that nothing is static and that all things will change. even if that change is going back to the old way. I mean we all must know those guys that claim “squat” lifting (squat snatch and squat clean) is a fad and we will eventually go back to “Split” lifting (as in the split snatch and split c&j) style. Right? cause if you dont know one you can meet them over at crossfit.

So I suppose its one of those things where we have the facts and need to learn to apply them functionally for us. I wish the lifters themselves had kept training journals. imagine the things you could do with those statistics!

In other news: I can watch that '98 video over and over and I still want to watch it again. the fashion. the hair. the music. its all there. not to mention some huge backwards jumps on teh lifts.

-chris

Nah, I didn’t think either of you were bashing the Bulgarian approach. I was just putting some things down so people who might not be so familiar with it didn’t get the wrong end of the stick and think it was about making everyone snatch and C&J their competition max 6 times a day, 7 days a week.

As for the backwards jumps, no one comes close to Vanev. There’s footage from the Worlds in Finland a few years back and he’s jumping even further back than on the 98 tape - a good 12 inches or so. Coupled with the way he always leaves his jerks forwards it’s no wonder he broke both his arms. Still gotta love the guy though. Utterly fearless.

jesus, how did Vanev break both his arms???

[quote]actionjeff wrote:
jesus, how did Vanev break both his arms??? [/quote]

“Zlaten Vanev (Bulgaria) nailed this 200-kg jerk to win the 77-kg category at the 1998 European Weightlifting Championships. On his next attempt, Vanev took 205.5 kg, and instead of breaking the world record, he broke his left arm. Two years later, while training for the 2000 Olympics, he broke his right arm on a snatch.” Randall J. Strossen

[quote]ninearms wrote:
actionjeff wrote:
jesus, how did Vanev break both his arms???

“Zlaten Vanev (Bulgaria) nailed this 200-kg jerk to win the 77-kg category at the 1998 European Weightlifting Championships. On his next attempt, Vanev took 205.5 kg, and instead of breaking the world record, he broke his left arm. Two years later, while training for the 2000 Olympics, he broke his right arm on a snatch.” Randall J. Strossen[/quote]

This is the problem with having 3 testicles and an extra Y-chromosome.

Some cats are just to hard for their own good. Like a rooster my friend had on his farm. it would fight with the dogs and cats and foxes and come out about square but almost dead. then it would run into the bushes and come out alive days later. There were 3 occasions when he had the bird’s “body” in the garbage heap to take to the dump and the next morning it would be walking around trying to have a root with the hens. In the end it was missing a wing, eye, one toe/claw thingy, and had one side of its head flattened from kinda being crushed in sorta. On the other hand it killed a fox and claimed one dogs eye and most of a nose. It also almost bit off one cats asshole. I never knew that was a target for chickens. It died from getting backed over by a trailer it couldn’t see with the flat side of its head.

In other news: I saw those 12-inch jump clips on youtube and it still amazes me. The guy could likely do a double back flip if he wanted.

but what this also means is that he cannot be “pulling under” the bar. How can you pull under and be jumping backwards at the same time? Or at least the bar is traveling in some sort of arch and therefore has got to be “landing” on him in the snatch. It is a wonder he didnt break both arms twice.

I’m sure when he broke the first one he was like “Broke what? Bones? robots don’t have bones silly!”

-chris

This thread is awesome on so many levels. Keep the discussion going. Im really enjoying/learning from this.

Boevski, Gardev, and Vanev were some badass lifters…just thought I’d throw that out there. They epitomized Bulgarian Weightlifting for me.

[quote]Avocado wrote:
In other news: I saw those 12-inch jump clips on youtube and it still amazes me. The guy could likely do a double back flip if he wanted.

but what this also means is that he cannot be “pulling under” the bar. How can you pull under and be jumping backwards at the same time? Or at least the bar is traveling in some sort of arch and therefore has got to be “landing” on him in the snatch. It is a wonder he didnt break both arms twice.
[/quote]

The Drechsler video has an analysis of Vanev’s bar path, and the bar’s already moved back about 4 inches by the time it gets to his knees. Did someone say weight on your heels?

There’s a video on the training of Chinese elite weightlifters that I think applies here.

One thing that stands out to me is that back injuries affected 3 out of the 4 or 5 athletes they talked to. Either way these cats are pretty intense.

[quote]ninearms wrote:
Avocado wrote:
In other news: I saw those 12-inch jump clips on youtube and it still amazes me. The guy could likely do a double back flip if he wanted.

but what this also means is that he cannot be “pulling under” the bar. How can you pull under and be jumping backwards at the same time? Or at least the bar is traveling in some sort of arch and therefore has got to be “landing” on him in the snatch. It is a wonder he didnt break both arms twice.

The Drechsler video has an analysis of Vanev’s bar path, and the bar’s already moved back about 4 inches by the time it gets to his knees. Did someone say weight on your heels?
[/quote]

When you think about it that way it’s almost as if he’s caber tossing it or thinking about flinging it back over his head into the back wall, like when you chuck a sand bag over your head and chase it. But then he just inserts himself as a crash mat for the flung bar. In-sane.

-chris

Jeliazkov (sp?) has the kookiest lifting style I’ve ever seen on that 98 tape. He’s up on his toes as the bar crosses the knees, and then a MASSIVE jump backwards. Especially interesting since the Bulgarians generally encourage weight on the heels.

This is copied and pasted from Mike Burgener’s website. My thoughts are inserted in italics.

What If I were an Olympic Coach
by, Louie Simmons

In 1968 Jan Talts of the USSR said his training consisted of 90% power work and 10% actual competitive lifts. By doing this, he became one of the greatest lifters of all time. I recall him moving up to 110 kg. (actual weight roughly 100 kg.) and soundly defeating Bob Bednarski at the 1970 World Championships in Columbus, Ohio. If this system worked for him, why not me? Thus by using the training of the Soviets and modifying the special exercises to fit into powerlifting, I have developed the strongest power club in the world. In the United States, Olympic lifters have the Olympic Training Center, a national coach, and money in their budget. In fact, the Olympic lifter has everything that a powerlifter does not, yet the United States powerlifters rule the world, while our Olympic lifter brothers drag up the rear at international meets. I ask you, how can this be? Olympic lifters have a lot of excuses, none valid. This brings me to the title “What if” I trained Olympic Lifters?

If I were an Olympic lifting coach, I would first teach how one should train. A major mistake is doing the two lifts too often. Good training requires variety. I have said before that everything works, but nothing works forever.

The dynamic method with submaximal weight should be employed. This method is very effective with the correct percentages. I would recommend using weights between 60 and 80% of max to start with. A lifter who can clean 400 would start with 240 for the first week of training. The lifter would perform 12 cleans with short rest periods between sets (45 seconds to start with) and then 12 power snatches with the same percent and the same rest time between sets. If a lifter’s best snatch is 330, the weight is 198.

Jump 5% a week, and repeat 12 cleans and snatches at 65%. At 70% and 75% reduce the lifts to nine each. When you reach 80%, I recommend eight lifts each, for a total of 16. You are now employing the dynamic method with submaximal weight. You have also established a rest period. When using relatively light weights, short rest intervals are crucial. One should never let the body recuperate. If this happens, the athlete is doing nothing. Naturally, the lifter must use maximum force and always try to accelerate the bar.

I’m not sure I see the necessity of this approach. The lifts are dynamic and fast by nature. Lifting in the 80-90% range for 2-4 repetitions optimizes speed-strength development (Medvedyev), and for lower-level athletes, this 80% range produces consistently higher results than any other. I see the importance of speed work in powerlifting, but given the nature of the lifts (and that you’re already getting a significant amount of “speed” work if you’re power snatching and cleaning already), this seems superfluous to me

The lifts should only be done once time per week. Lifters in the United States spend too much time on the quick lifts. The reasons is twofold. First, the bar speed is too quick, for the most part. A weight can move too fast to develop max force. The weight selection is critical. As regards the velocity-force curve (a concept you should be familiar with), the bar should have a sufficient amount of weight to achieve the force factor and a certain amount of speed to supply the velocity. If you understand this, you may begin to see the problem. The olympic lifter may move the bar so fast that force is neglected.

I don’t see how the first point connects to the second. This would only seem to preclude training with weights below a certain intensity, which is already a given–training at 65% is not going to yield much of a result. And I really don’t see why this necessitates training the comp lifts rarely.

Remember what I said about weight selection. Let me illustrate by talking about throwing an object with a certain arm speed. Arm movement represents your absolute strength. If I throw a whiffle ball, it won’t go very far because it’s too light for max force to exist. Now if I throw a shot put, it doesn’t go very far either because it’s too heavy; thus no velocity is developed. However, if I throw a baseball, it will go a great distance because I have found a balance between force and velocity. This balance is found by doing velocity work with the Olympic lifts, and force work with special exercises in a controlled method known as the conjugate method. Foreign lifters have said the U.S. lifters lack strength, and I see the same thing. But no one seems to have an answer. I do. To suceed at weight lifting, a number of things are required. First you must be very strong.

It would seem to me that the most efficient way to maximize results would be to simply train the competition lifts in zones of intensity that maximize force, and power versions to maximize velocity, enabling both the development of strength and neurological efficiency at performing the lifts themselves.

This is where special exercises come in. If you think you must clean, for example, to be good at the clean, you are wrong, at least partly. I have seen a strong man clean 250 the first time he tried. How did he make that initial clean with no formal training? It was done through other physical activity. If he only concentrated on the clean, it is doubtful that he would ever double his effort to 500. However, if he used special exercises to develop the correct pulling muscles, he would have a much better chance.

It is known that to become a better miler, one has to increase his ability to sprint as well as increase stamina to the point of performing more and more work by doing multiple sets of runs at specific distances. At the same time, the rest periods between runs must be shortened. Also special exercises must be done to advance his progress. This is true in weightlifting as well.

Nobody is disputing this. This is why there are pulls, lifts from the hang and from blocks, rack jerks, squats, etc.

The second reason why too much time on the quick lifts is that if a lifter cleans and snatches all the time, it can lead to overdevelopment in some major muscle groups, while neglecting others. I’m sure that if you line up five weightlifters in a row, you will find that some have better traps, while lacking erector size, and some may have huge glutes, while others have hardly any glute development. This is because they have different structures. Special exercises can counteract this.

Not sure about the causal logic here. If your physiology develops in a certain way in reaction to weightlifting (which already contains a large variety of exercises that are performed regularly), it would seem to reflect the fact that this is the optimum structure for performance of weightlifting tasks, and that your development is essentially self-regulated by efforts to optimize your results. Sure, assistance work is necessary, but people react differently to different movements and develop their own technical styles.

When using the conjugate method, you must work your weaknesses first. If your traps are the weak link, work them first with pulls from boxes, snatch grip deadlift shrugs, or one-arm snatches. You will develop max force through heavy weights lifted at a slow tempo. If your pulls, good mornings, back raises, squats, etc., go up, your clean and jerk and snatch will go up as well.

OK, this is what I think is dumb. This is just false. I can train for a month to increase my snatch pull, and if I am not snatching often and relatively heavy, my snatch absolutely will not go up. Louie is vastly underplaying the importance of technique and practice in the execution of the lifts.

We have a junior (22 year old) 275 pounder who is the only junior to hold the open world record in the bench press at 728.5 pounds. He actually exceeded the 308 world record, the only man to do this. He trains the bench press with 365 for eight to ten sets of triples, barely 50% of his max. How is this possible? This is accomplished through special exercises for the bench press. The triples are done in a very explosive manner, followed by triceps, delt, and lat work. The second workout consists of rack work, floor press, or board press for a max single. We don’t care how slow or hard the lifts are on this day. This is the max effort method. We don’t even care if a lift is missed, because at least he is putting forth maximum effort. He will do a certain major exercise for two or three weeks and then switch. By doing this, he maintains velocity on one day and max effort on the other day 52 weeks a year.

What’s my point? You can do the same, by doing the multiple sets with submaximal weights and building explosive strength, and build amazing brute strength throughout the year with pulls off at least four different height boxes. Pick a certain box and max out for two or three weeks. Then switch to a different box and repeat. The pulls should be followed by some type of good morning. There should be a wide variety of exercises to choose from, and the number of exercises should be limited to four or five per workout. Don’t do what you like to do; rather do what you need to do.

I am amazed to hear that the squat is overrated as far as developing the Olympic lifts. Remember Paul Anderson? He was an unreal squatter. Paul was light-years ahead of everyone in the squat, and at the same time he catapulted himself ahead of everyone on the Olympic platform. The increase in his squat paralleled his success in the Olympic lifts. After Paul visited the USSR and astounded them, they began to build squat racks. They soon realized the benefits of the squat. I hear all the time that one only has to squat with 10% more than their best clean and jerk (C&J). But why then do we hear of monster squats by the European SHWs (900 pounds and more)? Well, if my math is correct, they are doing a lot more than 10% over their C&J. The same holds true for D. Aranda of Cuba, a junior world record holder in the C&J with 402. He squats a deep 617. The 175 pound difference is well over 10%!

Who says the squat is overrated? Where are these people?

The squat can be the equalizer for the U.S. lifters. I recall that Kurlovich said the squat had no correlation to the C&J. That may be true for him because of his particular body structure. He quite possibly is built in a way that the legs and low back work heavily in all exercises. But not everyone is in this category. It is true that the squat could increase to the point where it would not help the C&J and snatch, but remember Kurlovich? He claimed a 400 kg. squat. The ability to do 881 could have been the reserve he needed to do those massive snatches and C&J’s."

The U.S. lifters need to increase their squat poundages for the main purpose of increasing their absolute strength in the hips, low back, and legs. The squat should be a mojor part of training. Most of the training should be between 50 and 70%. I have a 165 pound lifter that trains with 8 to 12 sets of two reps. Short rest periods are a must (45 to 60 seconds) between sets. He trains with 405-435 and his best contest squat is 722. As you can see, he never uses more than 60%. The same is true for my 220. He never handles a weight over 500, yet made an easy 843 at the Worlds. That is also 60% for his sets of two reps. I have many examples of the 60% rule. Everyone at Westside squats one time a week, followed by a variety of low back and ab work. This is our dynamic method.

We also have a maximum effort day. We manage these great poundages through a high volume of training, coupled with roughly 40 special exercises, using only two or three at a time and rotating them every two or three weeks; this is called conjugate training. If your snatch grip deadlift goes up 50 pounds along with an increase in your high pulls off boxes, your calf-ham-glute and back raises, and your squats, then your snatch is increased. You must set records in many special exercises. Pick a group of exercises that work well for you and rotate them every two or three weeks.

NO, NO, NO. Your snatch does NOT inevitably increase.

My methods are the reverse of everyone else’s. For example, if my lifter does a C&J with 402 and we are trying to compete with a lifter who is capable of 462, my training goal is to bring up the strength to that of our competitor by working towards being equal to his high pulls, squats, back raises, good mornings, etc. When we become equal to him in the special exercises, we will be equal to his 462. The U.S. lifters have the techinal skills but lack a high level of special strength, which can only be developed through special exercises. Progress in a lift does not stall; rather, a particular muscle group stalls. If our bench press stalls, we simply do more special work on the triceps, delts, upper back or lats. That is what is holding back the bench press, not the bench press itself.

I would use the same systrem for the Olympic lifts. Only a few have a perfect balance of muscle groups. Everyone else needs to do a higher volume of work for certain muscle groups. I am certain you have seen lifters with tremendous traps with mediocre erectors or just the opposite. Just look at the photo in MILO, Vol. 3, No. 2, page 31, of Pisarenko doing snatch pulls off a bench. Note first his balanced physical development. Certainly some of it comes from special pulls, such as thoses in the photo. Why do some Russian lifters do snatch pulls while standing in knee-high water? These special exercises
enable them to kick out butt. There is no excuse for a U.S. lifter not to be on page 31 of that issue of MILO.

With a high volume of reverse hypers, belt squats, kneeling squats, and special work with chains for pulling, learning how and why box squatting should be incorporated into training, knowing what percentage and how much volume to use, doing some eccentric, isokinetic, static, and dynamic work and many special exercises, we could move up considerably in the world of weightlifting. If we are to have a chance at the world level, we must learn how to train. If there is an excuse to fall back on, it is not knowing how to train. I would like to say something about Gary Taylor. Here is an unbelievably strong man. Did you notice that he is strong in just about everything he does? I would guess that one exercise contributed to the progress of the next exercise. This is exactly what I am talking about. One needs a widee array of exercises. I am quite sure Gary could still do well in weightlifting and take his fair share of powerlifting trophies as well. Is he a throwback to lifters like Ernie Pickett, Fred Lowe, and Russell Knipp, or is he what should be the future of weightlifting? Mixing an assortment of special exercises to excel in cleaning ability and his unreal push jerk, I think he exemplifies the latter.

Powerlifters sometimes will use the Olympic lifts to help their speed. It would be wise to do special exercises in slow tempo to develop max force in the Olympic lifts. Special exercises will not destroy form, but will in fact bring good form together by reinforcing the weak links. We know that there are six phases in the snatch. I find it hard to believe that each phase is equally developed in most lifters. Find the weak phase and strengthen it through special means. I find a similar problem in the squat. Most lifters base the amount of their squat poundages off their C&J. But American lifters’ C&J are so weak that it holds the squat back. Push the squats along with the pulls. Don’t do it the other way around. It’s not the C&J that should dictate the squats and pulls, but vice versa. The number of training workouts should be between four and a maximum of eight. For now, over eight would lead to overtraining. Once the work capacities are raised, then and only then would more workouts be added. I would raise workloads by reverse hypers and belt squats. Both have rehabilitation qualities and strength building potential. Exercises like walking barbell or dumbbell lunges and static squats against a wall would also be used to raise work capacity. Hip flexor work with either hanging or lying leg raises, one-leg swings, or spread eagle sit-ups would be done. Overhead support work must be done from the front, back, and seated. Different grips would be used. Lots of work for the torso, glutes and hamstrings is needed.

We need to view training tapes of the best lifters between major meets to see what made them strong. We must learn to max out on special exercises to test our strength gains. Learn the difference between a training max and a contest max. I have found success by changing routines and exercises to fit the individual lifter. The body is always changing and so must the training for constant progress."

With all the special exercises he proposes, relatively little time is left for performance of the actual competition lifts. I understand that he doesn’t view this as a problem, but in a sport as skill-based as Olympic Lifting, constant practice is hugely important. Additionally, the less CNS-intensive nature of the exercises enables more frequent practice, whereas powerlifting requires more variety to reduce the risk of overtraining. I think Louie has some good points here, especially that American lifters need to be a lot stronger than they are, but his methodologies most certainly do not guarantee increased results in the competition lifts. It just seems back-asswards to me that he would take principles originally derived from Olympic lifting, apply them to powerlifting, and then try to apply those principles back to Olympic lifting. Does this strike anyone else as weird?

He probably thinks:

“the weight is on my heels… when i land.”

Or maybe he’s self-conscious about his calves. many men are you know.

time to watch it all again in the worst definition ever on my huge-enough-to-make-up-for-my-small-dick HD tv. I love transferring VHS onto DVD.

I always wanted to go top the second hand store to find one of those track suits to train in. purple and yellow for me. you know your hard as sudoku when…

-chris

I think i need to print that one. I’d go blind in one eye if i read that whole thing. thanks for digging it up sir.

-chris

[quote]Sneaky weasel wrote:
With all the special exercises he proposes, relatively little time is left for performance of the actual competition lifts. I understand that he doesn’t view this as a problem, but in a sport as skill-based as Olympic Lifting, constant practice is hugely important. Additionally, the less CNS-intensive nature of the exercises enables more frequent practice, whereas powerlifting requires more variety to reduce the risk of overtraining. I think Louie has some good points here, especially that American lifters need to be a lot stronger than they are, but his methodologies most certainly do not guarantee increased results in the competition lifts. It just seems back-asswards to me that he would take principles originally derived from Olympic lifting, apply them to powerlifting, and then try to apply those principles back to Olympic lifting. Does this strike anyone else as weird? [/quote]

I actually don’t think what Louie’s is saying is that outlandish.

The bottom line is that the American OLer is weak, comparatively speaking.

Part of the problem is that the developmental teams (or lack there of) at the youth level is ultimately the problem here. There is no system of development. OLing is not a popular thing to get into like it is in these other countries, so we don’t have out best athletes competing in lifting like other countries do. Because of this, I feel it’s sort of frivolous to worry about what these countries are doing with their workouts because it really isn’t all that applicable. I have a buddy that coaches football (Gridiron) in Europe. I asked him about what he installed, etc, and his basic answer was that it was like coaching a High School team with slightly better athletes, so you can’t install complicated reads and things of that nature. Same thing may have to apply here. Get strong first and worry about everything else second.

Lifters in other countries are doing essentially what Louie is recommending for about the first 3-5 years of training anyway (at very young ages I might add). Once they build their general prep up, they start to focus more on contest lifts.

One thing to take note, as lifters strength qualities change, so do the workouts. Westside is getting much more specific now than it ever has been in the past. Currently, the lifters are training in gear just about all the time, and with near contest heavy weights, all the time. Sound familiar? Sounds a lot like how the Bulgarians went about lifting, basically the contest lifts plus a few other lifts, and that’s what Westside is currently doing. I would bet that as the lifters adapted, so would the workouts change.

Bottom line is that there could be worse things than giving Louie at least a crack at helping things out.

I agree basically with what you and he are saying–I definitely think the key problem is in the developmental process. And I agree that American lifters need to be stronger. I just don’t get why he thinks the PL-style ME/DE template is the best way to go about doing it.

What a read.

I’d say i agree with Dom in most senses as well. The longer training years of the euro lifter or Chinese lifter make them stronger in general than the younger (training years wise) American lifter. But i dont see what sense it makes to take the younger lifter and work on their general strength without a main focus on the basic lifts and constant repetition thereof.

It’s partly a matter of training years. One group of lifters is less strong because they haven’t been at it as long and didnt start off with the same physical capital. there isnt any program that will make them competitive with more veteran lifters who had a better start.

I also do not see how the ME DE method would be optimal to accomplish this either. especially if it went the common way and put a majority of the volume into variation lifts and assistance as opposed to the full comp lifts.

It makes sense to train without as much focus on the comp lifts with young (chronological age wise) athletes and athletes who are beginners and undeveloped. but I’d say hooking into the comp lifts themselves will do a good deal to build up strength and development. makes you fast. gives you a big ass. fast guys with big asses tend to excel at sports.

I just don’t see why the two classic lifts would be minimized in a sport that is based on making them better. I also bet those young lifters in east europe are getting their fair set of snatches and C&j’s in.

That being said, I love power shrug-pulls off the blocks with the bar at about mid thigh, any grip. I have a hard time taking that assistance lift out of my program for too long. getting the weight up on those makes me forget about how small i am in the britches.

-chris