I realize that there was a time that labor unions were necessary. At least that’s what I draw from the history books.
But it seems that they are now killing the golden goose. Case in point: I read yesterday (in Time I beleive)that when a GM auto factory closes, the union contract requires that all of the laid off workers be paid 95% of their gross (pre-tax) salaries for two years.
Christ! Sign me up for that sabatical anytime.
[quote]Massif wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Get rid of the bloated, over-paid union worker, and the industry might have a fighting chance. You can’t swim very far with a millstone tied around you neck.
Absolutely spot on.
For so long, the auto unions have demanded more and more from their employers. Now the weight of their demands are causing those same companies into bankruptcy, or at the very least, massive redudancies and renegging on pension entitlements.
How is that helping the employees?[/quote]
I have heard this a couple times, the bashing of that specific union. Now, my question is- wouldn’t they not have a problem paying out if they made a better product?
I’m under the assumption that the Japanese cars are higher quality- it seems like everyone thinks Hondas and Subarus drive forever- which they can.
I drive a Dodge, and always buy American with regards to trucks. However, if one knows that japanese cars are not only better, but cheaper, they generally would buy them- which people have been.
So Japanese cars sell better, last longer, and are cheaper than the American cars that Ford or Chevy make, and they generally make gas guzzlers, which people don’t want anymore. If they had tried to adapt, and keep up with the industry better, their profits would be up.
I haven’t really read about GM, so I might be wrong, these are just thoughts. But blaming the union completely seems a little overboard to me. There are always more causes than “the union is too strong”.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Unions have their place but they are just as corrupt as corporations.
Often unions fail to take outside competition into account and end up screwing the company.
In my experience in the corporate world unions and management are riddled with incompetent and dishonest people just like all walks of life.[/quote]
This I agree with. I am a pro- Union guy, but unfortunately they have strayed veerrryyy far from their original intent of uniting the worker. The corruption makes them little better than the corporation sometimes. And unfortunately, stupid people are impossible to dodge.
[quote]
Damici wrote:
When Ford and Cadillac and GM start topping the JD Power Survey the way Toyota, Lexus and Honda do, on a regular basis, year after year, then you might begin to convince me. As of now, it ain’t so. When people start being able to tell you stories from years back about an American car they had, they way people do now about how they had a 1990 Accord or Celica when they were in high school that had 210,000 miles on it and still took them cross-country 3 times without so much as a window switch breaking, when people can tell those stories about American cars, THEN you might begin to be right.
The big 3 never made the slightest attempt to best the Camry and Accord, and that continues to be their downfall. They’re not even close.[/quote]
American Cars are not as dependable? That’s a lie. Here is the JD Power Survey long term dependability results. Read the results before quoting them 4 out of the top 10 are American with the Japanese holding 5. Out of the top 5, 3 are American one is European and one is Japanese.
http://www.jdpa.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=996
“General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company models receive five segments awards ?a record for both GM and Ford in VDS. Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards.”
Please don’t contribute to the myth that American cars are unreliable.
[quote]GaMeOvEr305 wrote:
Damici wrote:
When Ford and Cadillac and GM start topping the JD Power Survey the way Toyota, Lexus and Honda do, on a regular basis, year after year, then you might begin to convince me. As of now, it ain’t so. When people start being able to tell you stories from years back about an American car they had, they way people do now about how they had a 1990 Accord or Celica when they were in high school that had 210,000 miles on it and still took them cross-country 3 times without so much as a window switch breaking, when people can tell those stories about American cars, THEN you might begin to be right.
The big 3 never made the slightest attempt to best the Camry and Accord, and that continues to be their downfall. They’re not even close.
American Cars are not as dependable? That’s a lie. Here is the JD Power Survey long term dependability results. Read the results before quoting them 4 out of the top 10 are American with the Japanese holding 5. Out of the top 5, 3 are American one is European and one is Japanese.
http://www.jdpa.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=996
“General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company models receive five segments awards ?a record for both GM and Ford in VDS. Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards.”
Please don’t contribute to the myth that American cars are unreliable. [/quote]
If your talking lower end cars GM and Ford are junk. I don’t care what the study says. We have a cavalier and it is gargae, I know of Focus’s that are not any better. The higher end cars might be better but you also pay out the ass for them.
Nothing the domestics make compares to a honda civic.
[quote]GaMeOvEr305 wrote:
American Cars are not as dependable? That’s a lie. Here is the JD Power Survey long term dependability results. Read the results before quoting them 4 out of the top 10 are American with the Japanese holding 5. Out of the top 5, 3 are American one is European and one is Japanese.
http://www.jdpa.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=996
“General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company models receive five segments awards ?a record for both GM and Ford in VDS. Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards.”
Please don’t contribute to the myth that American cars are unreliable. [/quote]
Oh hell yeah! Rock on brother! This is what I’ve been saying all along and I will stick to it.
I own a 2003 Ford Taurus and a 2003 Kia Specta, each with close to 70,000 miles. Want to take a stab at how much more money I’ve had to pour into the Ford?
[quote]doogie wrote:
I own a 2003 Ford Taurus and a 2003 Kia Specta, each with close to 70,000 miles. Want to take a stab at how much more money I’ve had to pour into the Ford?[/quote]
Oh, and that goes for EVERYTHING, every Ford and every Kia across the board…
[quote]lostinthought wrote:
doogie wrote:
I own a 2003 Ford Taurus and a 2003 Kia Specta, each with close to 70,000 miles. Want to take a stab at how much more money I’ve had to pour into the Ford?
Oh, and that goes for EVERYTHING, every Ford and every Kia across the board…[/quote]
Of course.
There was a point in our history when unions were absolutely necessary. Many of our worker’s rights are the result of things that the unions fought for in the early 20th century.
However, you can trace the destruction of manufacturing in this country (automakers included) to the health care and pension plans of the unions. Every one of these companies that has either gone out of business or is in or near bankruptcy cites their health care and pension costs as the #1 and #2 reasons for their insolvency.
As long as workers overseas can do it just as good at half the cost, U.S. manufacturing is going bye-bye. There are many industries where I think that American quality was better (my Levi jeans are a glaring example), but the auto industry isn’t one of them.
The Japanese, and now the Koreans, are kicking our ass in the quality and resale value departments. I’m sad to say that is never going to change. The U.S. auto industry (along with the airline industry) is already dead. It just doesn’t know it yet.
[quote]alstan90 wrote:
Shame? Not really, since when did GM make good cars?
Aston Martin - Nope
Porsche - Nope
Audi - Nope
Merc or BMW? - Nope
Ferrari - Not a chance
And ruined Jaguar. GM has done nothing but to kill the auto industry. It can only be a good thing as it will make the market so much more competitive. All GM have done is bos around smaller companies taht make better cars such as Jaguar (which they ruined) Thank god Aston Martin are only in partnership with ford and GM.
NO AMERICAN CARS REALLY DO SUCK.
And you know they do, thats why you all drive hondas and toyotas.
[/quote]
Im not sticking up for GM but; GM owns Jaguar? Im quite sure Ford owns them and Ford ruined them.
TR
You missed 2 things: the part where a said, “on a regular basis, year after year,” and the part where I relayed an anecdote about a 16-year-old car with 210,000 miles that will take you cross-country 3 times with nary a hiccup. These stories are abundant with Toyotas and Hondas. Not so with Big 3 cars, period. Are they getting better? Yeah, but it’ll take about 15 more years before the population at large is convinced. They still don’t make anything that’s NEAR competitive with the Camry and Accord, though, period.
[quote]GaMeOvEr305 wrote:
Damici wrote:
When Ford and Cadillac and GM start topping the JD Power Survey the way Toyota, Lexus and Honda do, on a regular basis, year after year, then you might begin to convince me. As of now, it ain’t so. When people start being able to tell you stories from years back about an American car they had, they way people do now about how they had a 1990 Accord or Celica when they were in high school that had 210,000 miles on it and still took them cross-country 3 times without so much as a window switch breaking, when people can tell those stories about American cars, THEN you might begin to be right.
The big 3 never made the slightest attempt to best the Camry and Accord, and that continues to be their downfall. They’re not even close.
American Cars are not as dependable? That’s a lie. Here is the JD Power Survey long term dependability results. Read the results before quoting them 4 out of the top 10 are American with the Japanese holding 5. Out of the top 5, 3 are American one is European and one is Japanese.
http://www.jdpa.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=996
“General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company models receive five segments awards ?a record for both GM and Ford in VDS. Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards.”
Please don’t contribute to the myth that American cars are unreliable. [/quote]
I have had good luck with the Fords,Chevies and Caddies that i have owned,Of course i try to buy clean older cars and trucks,i dont trust all the electrics and computers on these new vehicles,I had 2 mid 80’s ex-state trooper crown vics that i bought when they had 80,000 and drove them well over 300,000 when i sold them with original trans and motors.You just have to be picky about what motor and trans combo the cars have .
They all have some motors and trans that are junk to start and some that are designed to last.I used to get a big kick when on real cold mornings ,peoples new cars wouldnt start and i would jump in my old 77 LTD with a 460 & C-6 and it would fire right up and i’d be gone in my $1100 car and they"d be sittin in their 30-40 thousand $ rides that wouldnt start.
Can anybody say Keepin up with the Jones’s is the way to go.
The industry had it coming for years and all those overpaid workers should have seen it coming.
Resale value of American cars / trucks is considerably lower than Japanese and German. Why should I spend $20K on a new Pontiac when I can get one for $13K - $14K that’s a couple of years older with a few miles on it? I got my last 2 cars from Carmax and I’ll never go back to a new car dealership again.
[quote]doogie wrote:
lostinthought wrote:
doogie wrote:
I own a 2003 Ford Taurus and a 2003 Kia Specta, each with close to 70,000 miles. Want to take a stab at how much more money I’ve had to pour into the Ford?
Oh, and that goes for EVERYTHING, every Ford and every Kia across the board…
Of course.[/quote]
I have to disagree. My Ford Focus has never given me one second’s worth of trouble.
(Although it doesn’t have the gas milage you would expect out of a small 4-door.)
I live in very auto dependent Ohio and it is seriously messed up. We’re not as bad as Michigan but we have people coming from there to look for work!
My American vehicles have gotten better over the years, but those companies lost a lot of loyalty, by sitting back on their asses while foreign car companies kept innovating. The domestics now seem like “me too!” companies, one step behind the others.
I think the domestics will lose their international prominence and become regional players, like Kia.