Yea, sure.
Well, its just the way i am and the way i was born. I had a severe autism when i was a kid, and since i dont live in USA or other modern countries, my parents beat the shit out of me for being un-polite and not greeting strangers. Most of the time till the age of 14 i had trouble speaking to people. I also lack emotions so sometimes i say stuff that is too much “in your face” and people dont like it. I have shit genetics in absolutely everything i have tried to do in my life - sports, music, studies…nothing comes easy to me, but as all autistic people i do have this stupid “all or nothing” drive and i can just grind forever. Like i can go on a 3 day fasting with no problem. I dont understand how is it hard to lose weight for some people - i just stop eating until im done with my weightloss, lol.
Anyways, all this time i was given shit from my parents, and beat up in school. The only thing that i liked was watching old action movies, where guys like Stallone or Van Damme just beat up everyone who looked at them wrong. I loved the mean face of BA Baracus from The A-Team. People would fuck off him when he looked at them, etc. Idk why but that just programmed my brain that that sort of behaviour is what i need. So i started training, doing martial arts and at the age of 17-18 i discovered steroids and i didnt have even 2 seconds to think about if i want to do them.
So, what next? Well, i slowly grew bigger and bigger until once someone threw a paper at me, and i punched him so hard i felt his neck almost break. Since then, the whole school saw me as the “dangerous guy”.
By the time i started college i already could talk to people because i knew i can just scare them off of beat them up if something went wrong, lol.
Turns out, my mean looks and my social awkwardness is considered “cute” among girls. When i was 15, i tought i would never have the pleasure of touching a girl. 10 years later i was fucking a different girl every night, and i played Tinder like it was Mario on the easy level.
What else? From a person who is beaten up every day and can barelly speak, i became a Self Defense instructor for civilians, and a hand to hand combat instructor in military. Nowdays, i speak to classes and teach people to be safe OR to kick someones ass is 3 different languages.
I have fought the best MMA fighters in my country, i have trained police and military, i have met tons of cool people, i have had sexual experiences that make the sickest porn to look vanilla. And that all comes from the fact that i was no longer scared to look silly. I know this might sound idiotic to normal people, as i know that just hiding behind a fact that i can kill 99% of the population with my hands if i wanted to, is retarded thinking, but for a scared and humiliated autistic kid, this was the answer. I am pro-peace, and i hate physical conflicts, and i have never attacked anyone as an agressor(except that 1 thing in school i mentioned) but just the idea that people would leave me alone or if no, i could make them, somehow fed my ego, and i wasnt afraid to speak and do things.
I dont know if its the test in my brain that changed the way i feel, or it was the mix of being bigger than anyone and at the same time being able to do spin kicks to the head of a 6’3 person but whatever i started doing as a kid and up to this day - worked. I owe my whole life to my choise of doing steroids either it was mental, or chemical reactions in my brain or just the ability to train in the gym, and do 3 different martial arts classes every day for years - i dont care which is it, or maybe its all combined, but i am sure as hell that without this, i would never have any of the experiences i have had.
Yes, its nothing epic like winning championships or getting nobel prizes, but people with autism rarely get anywhere. For someone who started like i did, i have lived a life of 20 people already in my 32.
If steroids turn out to fuck me up, i will die thanking them for giving me ALL these incredible oportunities i have had. 20 years ago i watched Van Damme kicking someone in the face. Nowdays people pay for ME to teach THEM how to do that shit i was watching in movies as a kid. I mean, the way life turned out for me as soon as i started being MORE than average physically, is just magical for me.
Most people who dont have good genetics, me included, cant get anywhere with that, In fact, people like us, dont get far even on steroids, so no - my mindset is that either you go the distance or you dont. I am happy and amazed that there are people who get good results natty, but most - dont. I would be the one that does not.
my life is a proof of this…
i know that there are MANY ways to do stuff and many ways to get ahead. but not all ways are for all people… i went down this road and i am thankful for my life to this road.
I believe your ranking of genetics is off. You would not have accomplished what you have if you had poor genetics, even though you do roids. Those who perform poorly or fail to gain muscle naturally are not going to respond to roids excellently and fare poorer than those who respond well. Also, roids don’t do much in making one a competent instructor of anything.
yes, this i know, but my personality started forming only AFTER i started to feel that steroids do something for me… if i wouldnt have gone that way i would never even got the courage to imagine that i could do something like that.
i know steroids are just a part or maybe just the trigger, but its a super important element in the way my life turned out…
if i could go back in time, i would only advice my younger self to take less from the age of 25-30 but thats it… definetly i would tell him to keep the same course.
I asked to change the word safe to safer or delete three words and add two. With this topic, it doesn’t seem like a whole lot of work. Sends the right message. AAS should be spoken of in the same sentence with the words “harm minimization” or “safer methods” so as to indicate no method is safe, just some may be less risky than others.
I’m sorry @RT_Nomad. Maybe one of these other fellas can explain it to you. I’ve tried in good faith. @mnben87 you said you like this stuff; perhaps you are a better teacher.
To your point, then why invoke the word “safe” in the Pharma forum description? Why on earth would you choose to use that term ONLY in that particular forum description and then be adamant about keeping it in there? It only gives a false sense of confidence. You don’t use that term in ANY OTHER forum description. Why? Because to your point, it would be absolutely ludicrous and misleading. But it’s not misleading to use it in the Pharma forum description. Got it, thanks.
I had read once that low to very-low e2 actually caused DA neurons to die off, and if e2 was kept low long enough, some of those cells stayed dead and never came back. I think about guys doing shows taking huge amounts of AI to dry out for weeks at a time (or the several times I’ve crashed my e2), over how many shows, would that cause a permanent disfunction of your reward system? Or the very least make it harder to feel reward or motivation?
I think that the main problem in this topic is that many people who take steroids have no business taking them. @readalot kind of wants everyone to understand that it shouldnt be something you just hop on doing because you are going to the gym and follow some people on IG.
I agree that we have gone from completely dark ages to steroids being one of the first things always mentioned.
When i started steroids all we had was d-bol and deca. When i got my first internet, i read about this “testosterone” and couldnt even pronounce it.
Later we found out we have Sustanon. And some people were taking injectable winny that was water based and had crystals in it, so when you injected it, the water absorbed and the crystals remained there, and it felt like having shards of glass under your skin for the whole cycle.
No one ever tought about taking steroids for no real reason. All the guys i knew who were doing it, were going to be next Mr Olympia and nothing less.
People didnt even knew fitness. We had like 2 gyms in the whole country and only hardcore people went there. We had no idea what a PCT is. We just had time off. Actually, the best 2 old time bodybuilders are over 65 now. And the best one from a bit younger era is over 50. They all STILL do these dbol and deca cycles and no PCTs. They just take time off even now, when there is information around. And yes, they all compete in masters still.
Nowdays fitness is so casual that it actually does make me sick. Gyms are full of people who dont look like they go to the gym. Most trainers look like shit. There are actually fat trainers also. Every moron who spent an hour on IG actually has some people he trains and takes their money.
Also, because of internet there is a huge inflation of the line called - “what is normal”. Its just like in my country, having a basic degree is just a continuation of a high school, because everyone has some shit paper in something, the same is with fitness in the world - steroids and sarms now are just a normal road you go - join a gym, buy fancy pants, look for steroids.
What @readalot is trying to say, maybe, is for these people that steroids are NOT the normal and safe way to do their basic shit fitness.
Us, people who LIVE this lifestyle, are different. If there was no gym, we would probably be doing some car racing, or some extreme sports, or street fighting. All these activities can lead to death and most of them leave you fucked up at the ago of late 40s, but that is who we are and none of us have any problems with steroids not being safe.
People who speak the most in this topic for or against the main point are the ones who feel that their lifestyle is being attacked. I believe that @readalot has no interest of teaching how steroids are dangerous to people who would either take steroids, or go do something else, just as dangerous - the hardcore guys who just LIVE this life. I believe he just wants to draw the line for average stupid shits who roam this forum looking for how much test to do with 500mgs of tren ace, because they joined the gym 1 year ago. For these stupid fucks, the description that says something about “safe” might be misleading. Hardcore people dont give a shit. Stupid people get the idea that there is some way to just be “safe”.
There also is a huge difference of what is “safe” for this average idiot, and those guys who live and breathe this.
We will do some bloods, we will listen to our body. We will listen to @readalot and will try to do our best to be safER.
But these people that just come here and read “safe” and then do drugs - they dont even have a clue what to look for. So many topics here on “i will take this amount of AI” and they dont even know you can just do bloodwork.
Not safe is much more dangerous for them, than it is for us.
I believe that the IDEA is that… being in UFC is fucking dangerous. All the trauma you can get can leave you on a bed, half dead at a young age. But when people who have trained for a year in a local shit class, would go and have a fight in the UFC it would probably kill them. When someone who actually is at the level of UFC does the same extreme and dangerous thing, even tho he still has all the same risks, he can still try to live this life and be somewhat ok. And by somewhat - i mean, just survive. There are no fighters or instructors i know that are not fucked up. My collegue has back problems that can leave him on the floor not being able to call 911, and he is not even 40. Then he needs to be on bed for weeks taking injections etc.
I also believe that popularity of MMA nowdays is also leading to something simmilar as most people who fight for a long time will get crazy migranes and memory loss at a bit older age. Joints and tendons fucked up exactly the same way as it is for strenght athletes.
But the main problem is that most of these problems occur at an older age. And there is a classic joke in my country. Here it is :
3 guys drink and talk about life and decide that it is important to get married. Even tho no one wants to get married they decide that you need a family so there is someone who brings you water when you are on the death bed. So they all get married, live this miserable normal life with a wife and kids and slowly get old. One of them gets sick and is dying, so they all meet up at his death bed and he starts to laugh. The other two ask “why are you laughing?” and he answers : “i am not even thirsty…”.
Yes… However there are safe(er) ways to use. What’s riskier? 300mg test/wk or 1000mg test, 700mg tren, 350mg winny and 28 iu GH/wk.
I read earlier you spoke of idiot proofing this forum. I disagree with this notion. If we are to cut off uneducated posters and narrow in on the minority demographic that is actually educated pertaining to the pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics of these substances we would be doing the bodybuilding community a disservice
Harm reduction is important, some people are going to do stupid shit REGARDLESS of what you say. We may not like it, but teenagers and young adults can and do use steroids, psychoactive drugs, kids have unprotected sex, adults make risky life decisions. My point being… Stupid people will do stupid shit. If you don’t like it, don’t hang around people like that. I don’t hang around people who manipulate others or use others for their own selfish needs because I find such behaviour morally repugnant. If you don’t like people using steroids, don’t associate with people who use steroids. It’s NOT that difficult
Without a platform to allow this demographic to document what they do, no advice can be given in the name of harm reduction. Some people will listen, and some won’t.
You can’t save everyone, but cutting off those who think differently to you on a public forum isn’t the way to go about helping people. If anything, the net outcome equates to more harm induced.
No… There isn’t a risk free way to use bodybuilding drugs. There isn’t a risk free way to smoke cigarettes either, but smoking one a day isn’t as bad as smoking forty per day. There’s a spectrum of risk, it’s up to you to make the call as to whether you as an individual think it’s worth it.
Quite frankly, I think if you have a family, a significant other etc the risk is almost always skewed towards “don’t touch this shit with a ten foot pole” as the chance you won’t live to see your son/daughter graduate or get married provided intake is chronic in nature is simply too high.
John Meadows was an amazing, influential figure in the bodybuilding community. But let’s not forget… He had a hereditary disorder that led to him being in a chronically hyper-coaguable state, his mother died in her thirties, he’d almost died from complications mediated by his disorder twice in the past.
Anabolic steroids increase platelet aggregation through numerous mechanisms. From excess erythrocytosis, increasing TXA2 receptor density and decreased PGI2, RAAS dysregulation and subsequent hypertension and more. C17-aa AAS also have unique properties that further elevate the risk of thrombus formation.
Couple his MASSIVE predisposition with decades and decades of AAS use, sometimes employing very high dosages + thyroid hormone + beta 2 agonists and more and… I don’t think his death is a good example as to the pitfalls of AAS use.
Zyzz, Dan Puckett etc are good examples. Granted even then, you’ll find with Zyzz he had a congential cardiac defect, was fairly into hard drugs like cocaine and simultaneously used drugs like trenbolone and Clenbuterol. Another good example would be someone I indirectly knew who had been using AAS for a few decades. He died of a heart attack, leaving wife and kids behind.
The risk is relative. How much risk are YOU willing to take? What are your predispositions? My grandma smoked HEAVILY for forty years, she is now ninety six. My grandpa on the other side did the same (30-40+ cigarettes per day for 3 decades) alongside regular intake of alcoholic beverages, uncontrolled hypertension etc and died before he hit 50. Some people can literally get away with destroying their bodies and bounce back instantaneously whereas Jim with congenital hypertrophic cardiomyopathy might die after his third shot of testosterone.
You go through various routes to minimise risk, but you can’t eliminate it.
As you’ve specified, there is “use less drugs”, “use less frequently”, “trt +” like 150mg/wk long term as opposed to cycling.
Then you have bloods, organ screening. From my perspective, the biggest risk associated with AAS use is cardiovascular in nature. Bloods aren’t going to be enough. Monitoring lipids, regular echocardiograms, stress tests, blood pressure monitoring, bloods and more. Even then, this won’t guarantee AAS induced autonomic dysfunction + microvascular/cellular structural alterations won’t cause a sudden arrhythmia. But if you have a healthy looking, adequately functioning heart, decent bloods, BP, a good stress test chances are you are ACUTELY healthy. But then again, most on AAS will have fucked up bloods or transient signs of stress like a widened pulse pressure unless the dose is really low as it is nearly impossible to maintain a clean bill of health whilst you are poisoning yourself.
You’ve also got the issue of transient neurotoxicity, but current studies appear indicative this effect is relatively subclinical, dosages employed within the studies are typically absurdly high too, we are talking 700mg+/wk for decades of cumulative exposure. There are numerous mechanisms by which AAS could permenantly alter brain chemistry, particularly if you are below the age of 18 (preferably you’d start above the age of 23-26)
To minimise risk on AAS requires a level of monitering most either won’t have the patience to adhere to and/or they won’t be able to afford said monitering.
These drugs are NOT toys. However used very sparingly they’re far from the most dangerous substances one could take. I say this as literature is indicative for most one single cycle is relatively free of consequence for a healthy male aged 25+ (though studies used men as young as 18)
The caveat is… It’s NEVER one cycle. The guys who get in, have their fun, get out and put the needle down are almost always fine. The guys who keep using have problems down the line. Exactly like cigarettes.
There is an interesting study I will link later for @readalot@BrickHead and @mnben87 to read covering this. Details the ACUTE effect of AAS on cardiac parameters and details whether the effects are reversible. Now the median dose was something absolutely ridiculous like 1200mg/wk, however it made a glaring clarification we have never seen documented before. That is, anabolic steroid use results in an ACUTE, deleterious yet subclinical alteration re cardiac parameters and LVEF.
The “but” variable being, after 8 months of abstinence cardiac geometry and measures of function had returned to baseline. What does this mean? The conclusion the scientists proposed was… Extremely acute use within healthy adult men may not be particularly dangerous… We know this
Cumulative use very likely can (and I say it will) lead to congestive heart failure down the line. Everyones level of tolerance to abuse differs.
There are so many mechanisms by which AAS can lead to cardiomegaly. Some mechanisms can be blunted through the use of meds like ARB’s, beta blockers etc… But others like AR mediated cardiomyocyte hypertrophy… You’d have to use anti-androgens, thus nullifying the effect of your steroids.
The autonomic dysfunction is a very interesting variable, even in the study I’m going to link it shows RHR increases by 10+ BPM on average. For some you’ll find RHR may rise to the point of resting tachycardia. For those who are unaware of it and keep training the prospect of a tachycardia induced cardiomyopathy developing over time is very possible! Not all steroids are alike in this manner. I believe I’ve linked studies back when I was far more active on the pharma forum detailing rodent models, nandrolone and cardiac beta adrenergic receptor expression/upregulation.
Drugs like nandrolone, trenbolone are FAR more dangerous than the drugs like primo where people appear to require far more to eek out “gainz”. Makes sense… I mean even on paper drugs like mast, primo are far weaker on a mg/mg basis relative to testosterone.
People sometimes die trying to get down THAT low
Oil goes rancid over time. Be weary of that.
The keyword is one cycle. Or even a few over the course of a decade. You’ll find people tend to be impatient. But I’m in agreement that healthy adult men can use AAS and even avoid having to go on TRT afterwards (most of the time) if they’re smart about it.
Not entirely true. The difference is ever so marginal, but you’ll be able to hold a few extra pounds if you get REAAALLLLLY lean as getting very lean as a natural bodybuilder leads to endocrine disturbances. There is also the argument men on TRT can train for longer durations and still eek out results as an excessive rise in cortisol and a subsequent blunting in natural T production is less of an issue
For combat sports like Muay Thai, endurance sports like running TRT will make a huge difference as training for a fight will likely entail a regieme so intensive you’ll develop compensated hypogonadism.
Paradoxically, high dosages of gear won’t really help for sports like Muay Thai as the crippling pumps will impede training quality.
I want my left ventricle to be bigger than my entire body! 40,000 mg/wk sounds like a reasonable trt dose amirite
Reminds me of the guys talking about how they’re on trt “yeah brah, 200mg test, 200mg deca, 350mg oxandrolone and 21 iu GH/wk! But it’s all prescribed brah, I’m not enhanced”.
Meanwhile they’re listing out what is essentially a pretty fat stack
What a joke… As if people are legitimately dim witted enough to think this is trt
There’s testosterone replacement, then there’s androgen substitution therapy of which can involve synthetic androgens as drugs like methyltestoerone, mesterolone, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone etc have been used for androgen substitution… Then there’s cycling… I’m not stating AAS cycles are never medically indicated.
Cachexia, HIV/aids related wasting, Fanconi Anaemia, aplastic anaemia (depending on context) all may actually require a cycle… But for androgen replacement? What a joke… Look at the word… REPLACEMENT
To note, c17-aa androgens should never be used long term. Use for hormone replacement aside from very low doses in women is outdated. Extreme dyslipidemia and transient hepatotoxicity = not worth it.
I read an article by Skip Hill on this very topic just before coming on here on a site that is elite about its fitness.
Very haunting stuff and it is very clear that carefree, reckless decisions made in ones twenties when most do not have much to lose become a huge burden that carry a lot of worry later in life when one has something to lose.
This is a very important point, and one for which there simply are no easy answers. Mike Matarazzo comes immediately to mind–dying of heart failure in his 40s, knowing he’s soon to leave his wife a widow and child fatherless, looking back with so much sadness and regret at the decisions his younger self made.
Did you know Matarazzo was a boxer before be was a bodybuilder?
I imagine he would be slower, be prone to getting winded very fast… But I bet he had the ability to throw an absolute whallop of a punch in his bodybuilding days given his sheer size AND he probably had the technique down pat.
He competed in bodybuilding for over a decade! I don’t know how these guys do it… If I go “all out” in terms of training for five months… Let alone a decade I can almost guarantee a setback inducing injury will occur.
I’m not referring to steroid use when I say “all out”. I’m talking about training at near maximal intensity day in and day out.
It does give an advantage. Someone on TRT controls the amount of test, it will not be effected by sleep, diet, stress and life in general like a natural. This is especially true when dieting.
I agree with this. I do think if it is reasonable trt, that it isn’t a huge benefit. In competitive sports I can understand banning it though as it is an advantage.
Depends on the sport. I don’t think medically legitimate trt is going to make a difference in Olympic weightlifting unless you’re getting VERY lean to squeeze into a weight class
From my perspective, sports that require a large degree of endurance will benefit the most from TRT as extreme endurance training leads to compensatory hypogonadism due to excess cortisol
That TRT mediating a boost in RBC production relative to a hypogonadal baseline, increase in mitochondrial membrane potential, nervous system stimulation relative to a TT of 200ng/dl etc. You don’t need much either, 75-125mg/wk for an elite endurance will make a whole world of difference. He/she may not get much bigger… As he/she is an endurance athlete, not a bodybuilder… But performance wise it would serve as a significant boost.
Then again, another variable of importance is… Genetics
You can take all the EPO, TRT, amphetamines and GH in the world and you still won’t end up in the tour de France if you aren’t a genetic phenom.
There are sports where there is no such thing as “medically legitimate TRT”:
The doping problem was so intense in cycling that they started using a test for synthetic testosterone. The screening test for synthetic testosterone is a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio. Most people have a 1:1 to 2:1 ratio. The test screens for a maximum 4:1 ratio. If the athlete tests over 4:1, their sample is sent to be tested for synthetic testosterone.
