Negative vs. Positive Rights

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
41

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
Usmc, if I had to guess, I would guess that LIFTICVSMAXIMVS is referring to the fact that a business must spend money to become an LLC and get those tax benefits. Being an LLC is not desirable for any reason other than government interference. In other words, in a hypothetical free society, there would be no benefit to being recognized as an LLC. [/quote]

An LLC doesn’t protect me from the gov’t, it protects me from my creditors. In a free society, the ability for a business to fail and for it’s principals to not lose their personal assets is an enormous benefit.

As a pass-through entity the tax benefits are minimal, if they exist at all.
[/quote]

That would have to be part of the contract with the creditors in a free society. Usmc mentioned the tax benefits of being an LLC. I understand what the “LL” means, but such recognition is not a legitimate function of government.

42

[quote]NickViar wrote:

That would have to be part of the contract with the creditors in a free society. Usmc mentioned the tax benefits of being an LLC. I understand what the “LL” means, but such recognition is not a legitimate function of government.[/quote]

It is part of the contract with the creditors. They understand that their ability to recover is limited to the assets held by the LLC.

I’ll defer to usmc because he is the tax expert, but I’m a member of 5 LLCs all of which I’m the managing member, and in each case there is no tax advantage to organizing as an LLC. They are pass-through institutions.

And it costs me less to keep my LLC registered with the Secretary of State than it does to keep my car registered.

Do you have any experience with LLC’s, or the taxation thereof?

Edit: Do you believe in a free society two parties should be able to enter into a non-recourse loan?

43

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

That would have to be part of the contract with the creditors in a free society. Usmc mentioned the tax benefits of being an LLC. I understand what the “LL” means, but such recognition is not a legitimate function of government.[/quote]

It is part of the contract with the creditors. They understand that their ability to recover is limited to the assets held by the LLC.

I’ll defer to usmc because he is the tax expert, but I’m a member of 5 LLCs all of which I’m the managing member, and in each case there is no tax advantage to organizing as an LLC. They are pass-through institutions.

And it costs me less to keep my LLC registered with the Secretary of State than it does to keep my car registered.

Do you have any experience with LLC’s, or the taxation thereof?

Edit: Do you believe in a free society two parties should be able to enter into a non-recourse loan?
[/quote]

I believe that two parties should be able to enter into any sort of contract they wish. I don’t know why you even felt the need to ask that question. I merely entered this little sidetrack to offer usmc an answer that I thought would be similar to that given by LIFTIC.

The reason you’re giving for LLCs is the only “advantage” I knew of before reading usmc’s post in which he mentioned there being tax advantages. State recognition of LLCs is, especially in comparison to many other things the State does, perfectly fine, in my book.

44

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

That would have to be part of the contract with the creditors in a free society. Usmc mentioned the tax benefits of being an LLC. I understand what the “LL” means, but such recognition is not a legitimate function of government.[/quote]

It is part of the contract with the creditors. They understand that their ability to recover is limited to the assets held by the LLC.

I’ll defer to usmc because he is the tax expert, but I’m a member of 5 LLCs all of which I’m the managing member, and in each case there is no tax advantage to organizing as an LLC. They are pass-through institutions.

And it costs me less to keep my LLC registered with the Secretary of State than it does to keep my car registered.

Do you have any experience with LLC’s, or the taxation thereof?

Edit: Do you believe in a free society two parties should be able to enter into a non-recourse loan?
[/quote]

I believe that two parties should be able to enter into any sort of contract they wish. I don’t know why you even felt the need to ask that question. I merely entered this little sidetrack to offer usmc an answer that I thought would be similar to that given by LIFTIC.

The reason you’re giving for LLCs is the only “advantage” I knew of before reading usmc’s post in which he mentioned there being tax advantages. State recognition of LLCs is, especially in comparison to many other things the State does, perfectly fine, in my book.[/quote]

My apologies if I came off harshly. The way the quotes were nested, it seemed that you were saying that the limited liability aspect wasn’t part of the agreement with creditors.

45

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’ll defer to usmc because he is the tax expert
[/quote]

Thanks, but I’m no tax expert. There are a handful of tax benefits to being an LLC as opposed to being a C Corp (perhaps I wasn’t clear enough). LLC’s are pass through entities, as you’ve pointed out, and that is where the majority of the tax benefit is to be had (being taxed at the individual rate vs. a flat corporate rate). What sets the LLC apart from a Sole Proprietorship or Partnership is the limited liability benefit coupled with said tax benefit.

If I’m not mistake there are regs that affect an LLC that do not affect other business types that create additional tax benefits. Perhaps a real expert can chime in though, like Beans of Lanky.

46

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’ll defer to usmc because he is the tax expert
[/quote]

Thanks, but I’m no tax expert. There are a handful of tax benefits to being an LLC as opposed to being a C Corp (perhaps I wasn’t clear enough). LLC’s are pass through entities, as you’ve pointed out, and that is where the majority of the tax benefit is to be had (being taxed at the individual rate vs. a flat corporate rate). What sets the LLC apart from a Sole Proprietorship or Partnership is the limited liability benefit coupled with said tax benefit.

If I’m not mistake there are regs that affect an LLC that do not affect other business types that create additional tax benefits. Perhaps a real expert can chime in though, like Beans of Lanky.

[/quote]

One of the biggest tax benefits of the LLC are the flexibility of allocation, as long as it has a legit business rationale. IE: you and I start an LLC, you are just an investor, and I do all the actual work. We set up a priority return, where you get all the income up until you recover your initial investment, and then it gets split 75/25 me.

The second, and I would argue the most impactful is the distribution of capital. In a C-Corp your two options are loans (which will get your veil pierced lickity split) or dividends, which are taxed twice. In an LLC (or any partnership) you get distributions that are only taxed once.

47

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

All a corporation does is allow people to not be responsible with other people’s money and then get bailed out by taxpayers when they become “too big to fail”. [/quote]

Wow. This is one of the worst cases of cherry picking I’ve ever seen. The vast majority of corporations, now and throughout history, are neither too big to fail, nor the investment firms you are referring to.

This statement is akin to saying “a black person robbed a bank last year, therefore all black people do is rob banks.” IE: fucking idiotic.

In MA, the fee is $500 a year. Less than what anyone with a commute pays in fuels tax, most pay in sales tax in NYC in a year, and anyone pays in real estate taxes throughout the country.

And can we please stop with this LLC - Corporation nonsense. A LLC can elect to be taxed at the entity level, but an LLC is more akin to a partnership than a corporation.

In fact members in a LLC aren’t allowed to take a salary. (Many do thought, so it isn’t a hard rule, because the tax gets paid either way.) They are required to take GPP, which shifts the tax burden onto the individual. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

48

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Edit: Do you believe in a free society two parties should be able to enter into a non-recourse loan?
[/quote]

Yes, but what does this have to do with having to register a LLC with the US government? What business is it of theirs?

All the LLC is is a permission slip which carries no weight outside of regulation.

49

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

All a corporation does is allow people to not be responsible with other people’s money and then get bailed out by taxpayers when they become “too big to fail”. [/quote]

Wow. This is one of the worst cases of cherry picking I’ve ever seen. The vast majority of corporations, now and throughout history, are neither too big to fail, nor the investment firms you are referring to.

This statement is akin to saying “a black person robbed a bank last year, therefore all black people do is rob banks.” IE: fucking idiotic.

In MA, the fee is $500 a year. Less than what anyone with a commute pays in fuels tax, most pay in sales tax in NYC in a year, and anyone pays in real estate taxes throughout the country.

And can we please stop with this LLC - Corporation nonsense. A LLC can elect to be taxed at the entity level, but an LLC is more akin to a partnership than a corporation.

In fact members in a LLC aren’t allowed to take a salary. (Many do thought, so it isn’t a hard rule, because the tax gets paid either way.) They are required to take GPP, which shifts the tax burden onto the individual. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
[/quote]

Why should I have to incur an extra expense just to carry out a legitimate business? Why do I have to get permission from someone else who has no business to regulate me?

It’s unnecessary and it’s blatant extortion.

50

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Edit: Do you believe in a free society two parties should be able to enter into a non-recourse loan?
[/quote]

Yes, but what does this have to do with having to register a LLC with the US government? What business is it of theirs?[/quote]

The government can tax your income. Therefore your business formation is of utmost importance to them. If that is an issue, end the income tax.

Other than the fact this is completely false on every level, I don’t even know how to respond.

You don’t petition to become an LLC. In fact the only formation you petition for in non-profit, and you’re more likely than not going to get it unless we’re in Obama’s America and you aren’t a leftist group.

ANd as far as carrying no weight… lol, you’ve never been party to a liquidation or bankruptcy have you?

51

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why should I have to incur an extra expense just to carry out a legitimate business? Why do I have to get permission from someone else who has no business to regulate me?

It’s unnecessary and it’s blatant extortion.[/quote]

Sigh… It isn’t asking permission, it is paying a tax. Jesus Christ.

Do you pay taxes to own your home? Yup. Did you have to ask the town permission to buy the home? Nope.

Stop with this whining and nonsense.

52

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Edit: Do you believe in a free society two parties should be able to enter into a non-recourse loan?
[/quote]

Yes, but what does this have to do with having to register a LLC with the US government? What business is it of theirs?[/quote]

The government can tax your income. Therefore your business formation is of utmost importance to them. If that is an issue, end the income tax.

Other than the fact this is completely false on every level, I don’t even know how to respond.

You don’t petition to become an LLC. In fact the only formation you petition for in non-profit, and you’re more likely than not going to get it unless we’re in Obama’s America and you aren’t a leftist group.

ANd as far as carrying no weight… lol, you’ve never been party to a liquidation or bankruptcy have you?
[/quote]

All you are saying is that the government regulates/taxes business which was my only point to begin with. Outside of regulations their codes are meaningless.

In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.

53

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Edit: Do you believe in a free society two parties should be able to enter into a non-recourse loan?
[/quote]

Yes, but what does this have to do with having to register a LLC with the US government? What business is it of theirs?[/quote]

The government can tax your income. Therefore your business formation is of utmost importance to them. If that is an issue, end the income tax.

Other than the fact this is completely false on every level, I don’t even know how to respond.

You don’t petition to become an LLC. In fact the only formation you petition for in non-profit, and you’re more likely than not going to get it unless we’re in Obama’s America and you aren’t a leftist group.

ANd as far as carrying no weight… lol, you’ve never been party to a liquidation or bankruptcy have you?
[/quote]

All you are saying is that the government regulates/taxes business which was my only point to begin with. Outside of regulations their codes are meaningless.

In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.[/quote]

So… You’re arguing what a corp/LLC means in fantasy land and not real life then?

54

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.[/quote]

In a free society a contract would be meaningless whether arbitration, credit, or reputation agencies exist or not. This is where the “free society” crowd loses it for me.

B1: I’ll sell you these 100 cars for $5MM.
B2: Agreed

B1: Delivers cars
B2: I’m not going to pay you.

B1: WTF? I’ll see you in arbitration

A1: B2 you owe B1 $5MM due immediately.
B2: Nah, I’m good go fuck yourself.

B1 & A1: Well shit…

Contracts in a “free society” will not be held up by private arbitration unless both parties submit to said arbitration and then agree with what the arbitrator rules. Never gonna happen…

This would equal about 1,000 steps backwards. No thanks.

55

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.[/quote]

In a free society a contract would be meaningless whether arbitration, credit, or reputation agencies exist or not. This is where the “free society” crowd loses it for me.

B1: I’ll sell you these 100 cars for $5MM.
B2: Agreed

B1: Delivers cars
B2: I’m not going to pay you.

B1: WTF? I’ll see you in arbitration

A1: B2 you owe B1 $5MM due immediately.
B2: Nah, I’m good go fuck yourself.

B1 & A1: Well shit…

Contracts in a “free society” will not be held up by private arbitration unless both parties submit to said arbitration and then agree with what the arbitrator rules. Never gonna happen…

This would equal about 1,000 steps backwards. No thanks. [/quote]

Ah, dat “State of Nature” though…lol

56

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.[/quote]

In a free society a contract would be meaningless whether arbitration, credit, or reputation agencies exist or not. This is where the “free society” crowd loses it for me.

B1: I’ll sell you these 100 cars for $5MM.
B2: Agreed

B1: Delivers cars
B2: I’m not going to pay you.

B1: WTF? I’ll see you in arbitration

A1: B2 you owe B1 $5MM due immediately.
B2: Nah, I’m good go fuck yourself.

B1 & A1: Well shit…

Contracts in a “free society” will not be held up by private arbitration unless both parties submit to said arbitration and then agree with what the arbitrator rules. Never gonna happen…

This would equal about 1,000 steps backwards. No thanks. [/quote]

Ah, dat “State of Nature” though…lol[/quote]

Lol, they’ll end up just killing each other. Sounds awesome…

57

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.[/quote]

In a free society a contract would be meaningless whether arbitration, credit, or reputation agencies exist or not. This is where the “free society” crowd loses it for me.

B1: I’ll sell you these 100 cars for $5MM.
B2: Agreed

B1: Delivers cars
B2: I’m not going to pay you.

B1: WTF? I’ll see you in arbitration

A1: B2 you owe B1 $5MM due immediately.
B2: Nah, I’m good go fuck yourself.

B1 & A1: Well shit…

Contracts in a “free society” will not be held up by private arbitration unless both parties submit to said arbitration and then agree with what the arbitrator rules. Never gonna happen…

This would equal about 1,000 steps backwards. No thanks. [/quote]

Usmccds, you obviously don’t get it.

Contract disputes will be settled the old-fashioned way: micro-wars.

You fucked Dean Brothers Roofing Co. out of money you previously agreed to pay them? Now you (along with whatever collection of mercenaries you can afford) have got to deal with the Dean Brothers and their band of marauding soldier-cannibals-for-hire as they come, leather-clad and face-painted, to rape your women and dash your children’s heads against the rubble that was once your home.

Cause, you know, taxes is teh slavery.

58

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.[/quote]

In a free society a contract would be meaningless whether arbitration, credit, or reputation agencies exist or not. This is where the “free society” crowd loses it for me.

B1: I’ll sell you these 100 cars for $5MM.
B2: Agreed

B1: Delivers cars
B2: I’m not going to pay you.

B1: WTF? I’ll see you in arbitration

A1: B2 you owe B1 $5MM due immediately.
B2: Nah, I’m good go fuck yourself.

B1 & A1: Well shit…

Contracts in a “free society” will not be held up by private arbitration unless both parties submit to said arbitration and then agree with what the arbitrator rules. Never gonna happen…

This would equal about 1,000 steps backwards. No thanks. [/quote]

Usmccds, you obviously don’t get it.

Contract disputes will be settled the old-fashioned way: micro-wars.

You fucked Dean Brothers Roofing Co. out of money you previously agreed to pay them? Now you (along with whatever collection of mercenaries you can afford) have got to deal with the Dean Brothers and their band of marauding soldier-cannibals-for-hire as they come, leather-clad and face-painted, to rape your women and dash your children’s heads against the rubble that was once your home.

Cause, you know, taxes is teh slavery.[/quote]

Lol, no kidding…

59

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

All a corporation does is allow people to not be responsible with other people’s money and then get bailed out by taxpayers when they become “too big to fail”. [/quote]

Wow. This is one of the worst cases of cherry picking I’ve ever seen. The vast majority of corporations, now and throughout history, are neither too big to fail, nor the investment firms you are referring to.

This statement is akin to saying “a black person robbed a bank last year, therefore all black people do is rob banks.” IE: fucking idiotic.

In MA, the fee is $500 a year. Less than what anyone with a commute pays in fuels tax, most pay in sales tax in NYC in a year, and anyone pays in real estate taxes throughout the country.

And can we please stop with this LLC - Corporation nonsense. A LLC can elect to be taxed at the entity level, but an LLC is more akin to a partnership than a corporation.

In fact members in a LLC aren’t allowed to take a salary. (Many do thought, so it isn’t a hard rule, because the tax gets paid either way.) They are required to take GPP, which shifts the tax burden onto the individual. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
[/quote]

Why should I have to incur an extra expense just to carry out a legitimate business? Why do I have to get permission from someone else who has no business to regulate me?

It’s unnecessary and it’s blatant extortion.[/quote]

Well, you don’t have to - in most states you can operate as sole proprietorship. However, you’d enjoy no privileges like limited liability, and creditors can go after your personal property even if the act taken creating the financial liability was done in the name of your business.

60

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a free society people can contract with each other and those contracts can be upheld by private arbitration, credit and reputation agencies.[/quote]

In a free society a contract would be meaningless whether arbitration, credit, or reputation agencies exist or not. This is where the “free society” crowd loses it for me.

B1: I’ll sell you these 100 cars for $5MM.
B2: Agreed

B1: Delivers cars
B2: I’m not going to pay you.

B1: WTF? I’ll see you in arbitration

A1: B2 you owe B1 $5MM due immediately.
B2: Nah, I’m good go fuck yourself.

B1 & A1: Well shit…

Contracts in a “free society” will not be held up by private arbitration unless both parties submit to said arbitration and then agree with what the arbitrator rules. Never gonna happen…

This would equal about 1,000 steps backwards. No thanks. [/quote]

Excellent, and a thousand times, yes.