[quote]actionboy wrote:
Hey Mr. Meadows,
since we have your attention, can you give us an example of what a phase 3 workout would look like? any body part really, im just looking for an example.
thanks
[/quote]
Phase 3 and 4 incorporate more band work (and chains if you have them)
bands and chains used correctly equals even more intensity 
I’m off to CRUSH back, and when I get home, I’ll talk more about phase 3…
thanks again,
JM
Damn Cnk06 it just seems like such high volume to me, and so many working sets per exercise (I assume when you say 4-5 working sets you mean basically to the point of not being able to get another rep on any of those sets…and for unilateral work, damn that could take awhile).
John, do you feel this same approach of high volume would apply to a natural with average genetics? Also do you find clients need to eat significantly more when following your routine?
Oh and I thought of this earlier but forgot to ask, with this style of training are you following a split of each body part 1 time per week?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Damn Cnk06 it just seems like such high volume to me, and so many working sets per exercise (I assume when you say 4-5 working sets you mean basically to the point of not being able to get another rep on any of those sets…and for unilateral work, damn that could take awhile).
John, do you feel this same approach of high volume would apply to a natural with average genetics? Also do you find clients need to eat significantly more when following your routine?
Oh and I thought of this earlier but forgot to ask, with this style of training are you following a split of each body part 1 time per week? [/quote]
I don’t advocate taking every set to failure. Not sure where that came from. I typically do 2-3 sets per exercise in the lower volume phases, and 4 in the higher volume phases. My last sets are brutal yes, but if I do leg presses for example, I am not doing an insane crazy intense sets to failure every time.
The training works for naturals as good as anybody else. You get a full week to recover for each bodypart. Not sure where the thought that naturals could only use low volume came from either…
Yes, you are correct on frequency, one time per week…
Any time you train hard, really hard, yes you need more nutrient dense food. That apllies to all kinds of physical training, not just mine.
hope this helps,
JM
[quote]actionboy wrote:
Hey Mr. Meadows,
since we have your attention, can you give us an example of what a phase 3 workout would look like? any body part really, im just looking for an example.
thanks
[/quote]
ok - here you go, but you need to at least try it and give a fair evaluation, that’s your end of the bargain
Legs â?? 17 sets:
Barbell stiff legged deadlifts â?? 2-3 warm up sets. Use 25 plates so you can stretch better at the bottom. Work into the stretch as you go, donâ??t rush it. I want 4 sets of 10 reps. Once you get to a fairly hard 10, count that, then add a little weight each set for the next 3 sets also. Keep a slight bend in your knees while doing these. 4 total work sets.
Lying leg curls â?? You are going to do 3 sets of 15. Nothing fancy here, just do perfect reps with someone gently pushing down on your lower back. 3 total work sets.
Leg press with Elite Fitness bands - This is your last week on banded leg presses. I want you to again improve upon what you did last time. Do 3-4 sets of warm ups. Whatever you did for your hard 3 sets of 10 last week, I want you to try to add additional weight and do 3 sets of 8 this week. Use the exact same form (place your feet where you are strongest). 3 total work sets.
Barbell Squatsâ?? 1-2 low rep sets working your way up. I want 3 sets of 6 reps on these with 3 second descents. Go to just above parallel. These are meant to be done heavy, but you should get every rep. Do not use a weight so heavy you canâ??t get the reps with perfect form. Drive out of the hole hard. 3 total work sets.
Hack Squat â?? Ok, this is where the rubber meets the road baby. Time to finish this one in style. I want 4 sets of 10. The first 2 probably wonâ??t be too hard. For example, you might do 1 plate a side for 10, then 2, then 3, then 4. So itâ??s a pyramid. On the first two sets I want you to rest pause them. So get down deep, rest, then drive them up. On the last 2 sets, that is not needed. Just get the 10 reps. Your legs should be on fire, and toast. 4 total work sets.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
^ Good to see you post
Have to say, I like the arrangement/order you do for legs…really helps to get blood pumped in there before the big moves. Started doing that myself - it feels so much safer (injury-wise/warmed up) and better targeting[/quote]
Exactly - sequencing is so important!
[quote]John Meadows, CSCS wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Damn Cnk06 it just seems like such high volume to me, and so many working sets per exercise (I assume when you say 4-5 working sets you mean basically to the point of not being able to get another rep on any of those sets…and for unilateral work, damn that could take awhile).
[/quote]
I don’t advocate taking every set to failure. Not sure where that came from. I typically do 2-3 sets per exercise in the lower volume phases, and 4 in the higher volume phases. My last sets are brutal yes, but if I do leg presses for example, I am not doing an insane crazy intense sets to failure every time.
[/quote]
In that case how do you judge what is enough for a set? Do you keep the weights the same for each set and therefore 4x10 is really only hard for the last 2 or so? I’m sure anyone looking to progress in poundage has fallen into the trap of initially intending on keeping sets submaximal but then in an effort to beat the last workout push all near failure.
Maybe to better clarify you could give an example of weights and intensity.
for example:
DB bench 4x10…
100x10 (3 reps left in the tank)
100x10 (2 reps left in the tank)
100x10 (could not have done another rep)
100x8 (could not have done another rep)
Or more like
110x10 (1 left in the tank)
100x10 (1 left in the tank)
95x10 (1 left in the tank)
95x10 (couldn’t have done another rep)
or, typical bodybuilding scheme
60x10 (warm up)
70x10 (very easy)
80x10 (easy)
90x10 (moderately hard)
100x10 (2 reps left in the tank)
110x8 (couldn’t have done another rep)
?
Clearly there would be a huge difference in difficulty and recovery needed after 4x10 in the 2nd example (nearly every set very hard) vs. the 3rd (only last 1-2 are difficult)
Thanks again for taking the time to clarify
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Damn Cnk06 it just seems like such high volume to me, and so many working sets per exercise (I assume when you say 4-5 working sets you mean basically to the point of not being able to get another rep on any of those sets…and for unilateral work, damn that could take awhile).
John, do you feel this same approach of high volume would apply to a natural with average genetics? Also do you find clients need to eat significantly more when following your routine?
Oh and I thought of this earlier but forgot to ask, with this style of training are you following a split of each body part 1 time per week? [/quote]
My working sets are mainly focused on mostly on the muscle contractions, I have seen more benefit to strict-to-moderate form with a 1-3 second flex (There are sometimes where I’m not focus solely on my form but by no means do I let my form get sloppy just to move more weight). Also my working sets aren’t all to failure, I leave 2-5 reps in tank. With the drop sets and failure sets, I try to build up my intensity over the course of the different phases, example; phase 1: 1-2 failure set, Phase 2: 2-3 failure sets and Phase 3 3-4 failure sets. I feel by working on my intensity over the different phases allows me to continue challenging myself.
With Unilateral Back Work I just keep switching sides and when I feel it is necessary I take a rest (normally after I compete one set for both sides) with different rest intervals 30sec - 1 min. My workouts rarely go past 1 hour to 1.5 hours, depending on how busy the gym is (it’s beach season in Florida and everyone is trying to lose their spare tire at the moment) and if I decide to add calves or abs to the workout.
As John stated earlier, you only train the body part once a week to allow for proper recovery. Now I do calves and abs twice a week. With calves I add them to the beginning of the workout and with abs I add those at the end.
All that being said, John I hope I didn’t offend you by offering my take on the mountain dog articles. As I have enjoy reading your nutrition articles and training philosophies articles, and I hope I didn’t misleading anyone or deterred anyone from using MD training principles in the process.
If you don’t mind me asking my gym recently got rid of the machine dips and plate-load dips machine, I have tried both weighted-bench dips or CG floorpress as a substitute for 3 second descent dips and I’m not sure if these exercise would adequately replace the 3 second descent dips.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]John Meadows, CSCS wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Damn Cnk06 it just seems like such high volume to me, and so many working sets per exercise (I assume when you say 4-5 working sets you mean basically to the point of not being able to get another rep on any of those sets…and for unilateral work, damn that could take awhile).
[/quote]
I don’t advocate taking every set to failure. Not sure where that came from. I typically do 2-3 sets per exercise in the lower volume phases, and 4 in the higher volume phases. My last sets are brutal yes, but if I do leg presses for example, I am not doing an insane crazy intense sets to failure every time.
[/quote]
In that case how do you judge what is enough for a set? Do you keep the weights the same for each set and therefore 4x10 is really only hard for the last 2 or so? I’m sure anyone looking to progress in poundage has fallen into the trap of initially intending on keeping sets submaximal but then in an effort to beat the last workout push all near failure.
Maybe to better clarify you could give an example of weights and intensity.
for example:
DB bench 4x10…
100x10 (3 reps left in the tank)
100x10 (2 reps left in the tank)
100x10 (could not have done another rep)
100x8 (could not have done another rep)
Or more like
110x10 (1 left in the tank)
100x10 (1 left in the tank)
95x10 (1 left in the tank)
95x10 (couldn’t have done another rep)
or, typical bodybuilding scheme
60x10 (warm up)
70x10 (very easy)
80x10 (easy)
90x10 (moderately hard)
100x10 (2 reps left in the tank)
110x8 (couldn’t have done another rep)
?
Clearly there would be a huge difference in difficulty and recovery needed after 4x10 in the 2nd example (nearly every set very hard) vs. the 3rd (only last 1-2 are difficult)
Thanks again for taking the time to clarify
[/quote]
I would assume its the last example you gave there. so “typical bodybuilding” or whatever you called it. the lighter sets still contribute to a training effect and you arent taking every set to failure so it doesnt cut into your recovery. it does, however, leave at least one balls to the wall set per exercise.
you can even close the gap a bit on those DB presses. maybe (warm up sets: 40x8, 50x6, 60x4, 80x3-4) 95x10,100x10,105x10,110x10. that last set will be dynamite.
Know it’s kinda late, but Scott didn’t say Dorian Yates trained his back wrong, he said that the Yates row wasn’t as effective as a bent over row for targeting lats.
I think it was the article description that said Dorian trained back wrong
Cnk06, of the 3 approaches I listed, how would you say you typically go about it? Or feel free to post weight x reps with how much left next to each as above.
Also what do you do for calves? I couldn’t find an article on here by John for them. My calves are by far least developed and most stubborn body part, they don’t seem to net any growth at all from anything.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cnk06, of the 3 approaches I listed, how would you say you typically go about it? Or feel free to post weight x reps with how much left next to each as above.
Also what do you do for calves? I couldn’t find an article on here by John for them. My calves are by far least developed and most stubborn body part, they don’t seem to net any growth at all from anything. [/quote]
sorry to keep chiming in even these arent aimed at me but have you tried the DC protocol for calves?
[quote]actionboy wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cnk06, of the 3 approaches I listed, how would you say you typically go about it? Or feel free to post weight x reps with how much left next to each as above.
Also what do you do for calves? I couldn’t find an article on here by John for them. My calves are by far least developed and most stubborn body part, they don’t seem to net any growth at all from anything. [/quote]
sorry to keep chiming in even these arent aimed at me but have you tried the DC protocol for calves? [/quote]
Yup, I was going to mention that, didn’t see any different results. They’re pretty much permanently at 15in., they were up to 16in by the end of my bulk but literally within about a month of cutting they were back to 15in even though all other muscular measurements remained the same and strength has gone up.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]actionboy wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cnk06, of the 3 approaches I listed, how would you say you typically go about it? Or feel free to post weight x reps with how much left next to each as above.
Also what do you do for calves? I couldn’t find an article on here by John for them. My calves are by far least developed and most stubborn body part, they don’t seem to net any growth at all from anything. [/quote]
sorry to keep chiming in even these arent aimed at me but have you tried the DC protocol for calves? [/quote]
Yup, I was going to mention that, didn’t see any different results. They’re pretty much permanently at 15in., they were up to 16in by the end of my bulk but literally within about a month of cutting they were back to 15in even though all other muscular measurements remained the same and strength has gone up. [/quote]
i know meadow’s likes to train tibia with calves for a wicked pump. i think he also recommends training them 4-5 days a week for a couple months or until you feel you are overtraining them. then you lower the frequency to let them recover. i think its in his livespill somewhere.
[quote]actionboy wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]actionboy wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cnk06, of the 3 approaches I listed, how would you say you typically go about it? Or feel free to post weight x reps with how much left next to each as above.
Also what do you do for calves? I couldn’t find an article on here by John for them. My calves are by far least developed and most stubborn body part, they don’t seem to net any growth at all from anything. [/quote]
sorry to keep chiming in even these arent aimed at me but have you tried the DC protocol for calves? [/quote]
Yup, I was going to mention that, didn’t see any different results. They’re pretty much permanently at 15in., they were up to 16in by the end of my bulk but literally within about a month of cutting they were back to 15in even though all other muscular measurements remained the same and strength has gone up. [/quote]
i know meadow’s likes to train tibia with calves for a wicked pump. i think he also recommends training them 4-5 days a week for a couple months or until you feel you are overtraining them. then you lower the frequency to let them recover. i think its in his livespill somewhere. [/quote]
Hm, hopefully John can chime in. I tried a HFT plan by Chad Waterbury over my winter break HFT 2.0: The Good, The Bad, and How to Build Bigger Calves they actually shrunk a bit after 2 weeks. Might have gained some later on by supercompensation for a period of overtraining but idk, in the article chad mentioned the increase happening by the end of the program.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cnk06, of the 3 approaches I listed, how would you say you typically go about it? Or feel free to post weight x reps with how much left next to each as above.
Also what do you do for calves? I couldn’t find an article on here by John for them. My calves are by far least developed and most stubborn body part, they don’t seem to net any growth at all from anything. [/quote]
I would say my approach is based on how many reps that I think that I left in the tank. If I feel that I could not complete 2 extra rep with the weight, I’ll drop the the weight by 5 lbs for upper body work and 10-15 pounds for legs.
Example without drop set:
DB bench 4x10…
100x10 (3 reps left in the tank) so I’ll stay at 100
100x10 (2 reps left in the tank) started to feel fatigue so I’ll drop the weight by 5 lbs
95x10 (2 reps left in the tank) didn’t have 3 reps left in the tank so drop the weight again
90x10 (1 reps left in the tank) ending with one rep in the tank
Example with drop set:
HS Incline press 4 x pyramid with 1 drop set…
80 per side x12 (4 reps left in the tank)
85 per side x10 (2 reps left in the tank)
95 per side x8 (1 reps left in the tank)
100 per side x6 (1 reps left in the tank)
100 per side x drop set (aiming for 6 reps before drop, then drop by 10-20 lbs)
As far as calves, I follow Shelby’s live spill on training them http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/791. The first time I train calves in the week I will do standing calf raises and some tibialis work. And the second time I train them I’ll standing calf raises or donkey raises and then incorporate seated calf raises or toe press holds (30-60 seconds). As far as form for calves, I found that getting your calves to grow was to watch for using “knee bounce” (using your quad to do more weight) and making sure you use a full stretch on each rep. When I do standing calves I rarely use more than 3-4 selectorized plates because of short rest periods.
[quote]cnk06 wrote:
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cnk06, of the 3 approaches I listed, how would you say you typically go about it? Or feel free to post weight x reps with how much left next to each as above.
Also what do you do for calves? I couldn’t find an article on here by John for them. My calves are by far least developed and most stubborn body part, they don’t seem to net any growth at all from anything. [/quote]
I would say my approach is based on how many reps that I think that I left in the tank. If I feel that I could not complete 2 extra rep with the weight, I’ll drop the the weight by 5 lbs for upper body work and 10-15 pounds for legs.
Example without drop set:
DB bench 4x10…
100x10 (3 reps left in the tank) so I’ll stay at 100
100x10 (2 reps left in the tank) started to feel fatigue so I’ll drop the weight by 5 lbs
95x10 (2 reps left in the tank) didn’t have 3 reps left in the tank so drop the weight again
90x10 (1 reps left in the tank) ending with one rep in the tank
Example with drop set:
HS Incline press 4 x pyramid with 1 drop set…
80 per side x12 (4 reps left in the tank)
85 per side x10 (2 reps left in the tank)
95 per side x8 (1 reps left in the tank)
100 per side x6 (1 reps left in the tank)
100 per side x drop set (aiming for 6 reps before drop, then drop by 10-20 lbs)
[/quote]
Interesting, so you’re pretty much always leaving some in the tank. Definitely very different from what I was thinking of as 4 work sets with each going to 0-1 reps left, which is pretty much how I’ve always trained. The issue I (and others from what I can tell) have with a method leaving multiple reps in the tank is stopping when you should. For instance if I get 100x10 with 2 reps left in the tank and next week I want to progress so I go to 105 but as I’m repping I only could get 7 if I leave 2 in the tank I’ll probably push harder to get 8-9. So when do you decide to add weight, when you could get 3 more reps or so if you wanted to? And what if it feels the same for say 3-4 weeks at a time, do you just not add any weight/not progress the whole time? I understand its not just about weight progression but I would imagine there needs to be some gauge of progress there.
[quote]cnk06 wrote:
As far as calves, I follow Shelby’s live spill on training them http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/791. The first time I train calves in the week I will do standing calf raises and some tibialis work. And the second time I train them I’ll standing calf raises or donkey raises and then incorporate seated calf raises or toe press holds (30-60 seconds). As far as form for calves, I found that getting your calves to grow was to watch for using “knee bounce” (using your quad to do more weight) and making sure you use a full stretch on each rep. When I do standing calves I rarely use more than 3-4 selectorized plates because of short rest periods.[/quote]
Hm the link doesn’t direct me to any specific page, could you try re-pasting it or explaining how to get to it from the main page? I’d definitely be interested in reading it
Thanks for sharing your info
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Interesting, so you’re pretty much always leaving some in the tank. Definitely very different from what I was thinking of as 4 work sets with each going to 0-1 reps left, which is pretty much how I’ve always trained. The issue I (and others from what I can tell) have with a method leaving multiple reps in the tank is stopping when you should. For instance if I get 100x10 with 2 reps left in the tank and next week I want to progress so I go to 105 but as I’m repping I only could get 7 if I leave 2 in the tank I’ll probably push harder to get 8-9. So when do you decide to add weight, when you could get 3 more reps or so if you wanted to? And what if it feels the same for say 3-4 weeks at a time, do you just not add any weight/not progress the whole time? I understand its not just about weight progression but I would imagine there needs to be some gauge of progress there.
[/quote]
I view my weight progression similar to gaining weight, which it’s not always a linear progression. For instance let’s say one day I train and complete 100x10 with 2 reps left in the tank so naturally I feel I should add weight in order to continue challenging myself, this will not always the case.
With my training I take into account that some days I’m going to feel great during training and some I’ll be dragging myself through the gym, which is normally due to work, stress, hours of sleep, and diet. So when I set up my routine for the day, I set the number of reps I would like to complete for each set but I never include the weight I should start (I have an idea based on last weeks weight). Depending on how my warm up sets go will dictate what weights I;ll use for the day, so one week I might use 100â??s to start with and the next week I’ll use 90 cause I feel like garbage.
Another thing I try to do is use every bit of that weights potential for growth, meaning I tend to progress slowly in add weight. This might seem counterproductive but I’ll use the lesser amount weight if I’m still making gains. Again I view it similar to weight gain; if you are gaining weight with just 300 calories over maintenance diet why add on more calories and risk gaining more fat.
That being said, I like to ‘master’ the weight before progressing in weight. I will normally wait 3-4 week of steady use of the same weights before adding weight (steady= no 10 lbs UB changes week to week, 20 lbs for legs).
Another way to gauge or adjust my weight progression is by switching up the rep range. So one example, one week I did 100x10 and if I feel like I can handle more weight I’ll switch to 105x8 the next week. If I feel like I have 3-5 reps left in the tank (after 105x8) next week I might try 105x10 depending on how my warm up goes. One thing I plan on trying is switching from the lower rep range to a higher rep range.
I wonder if by switch from 8 reps to the 12 rep range the following week if I will be able to make a progression in weight. For example, perform 105x8 and then the following week be able to perform 100x12 when my previous best in the 12 rep range has been 95x12. My thought process on this is that your nervous system will be accustomed to the heavier weight but my nervous system wouldn’t be able to tell if I’m performing 8 or 12 reps.
Calf Training Tips
by Shelby Starnes - 05/11/2011
One of the readers complimented my calves in a recent Spill and asked me to expound on my calf training.
Most of what I do is per John Meadowâ??s recommendations, with a bit of tweaking of my own.
I consider calves a weak body part for me, and hit them twice a week â?? before leg training on Mondays, and before back training on Fridays.
By putting them first in the workout, I can give them priority and a lot of energy. A lot of guys train calves last in a workout, which makes them more of an afterthought in my opinion. Who has a lot of energy after a grueling leg or back workout? Not me, thatâ??s for sure.
I use a variety of calf exercises â?? standing, seated, donkey, and toe press on the leg press. Sometimes Iâ??ll do a standing raise in a Smith Machine as well, standing on an aerobics step.
Total reps per workout are usually between 60 and 100 â?? and sets are usually at least 4. So that could be 4 sets of 25 (100 reps), 5 sets of 15 reps (75 reps), 6 sets of 12 reps (72 reps), 8 sets of 8 reps (64 reps), or some other variation along those lines.
Sometimes Iâ??ll do drop sets â?? like 10 reps with a heavy weight, drop a bit and do another 10, then drop one more time for 15 to 20 â??burn-outâ?? reps.
Sometimes Iâ??ll finish a set with partial reps, say 20 from the stretch position to halfway up.
One workout I did recently was 8 sets of 16 reps â?? the first 8 reps of every set were full range, and the last 8 were partials from the bottom up. Those were standing raises.
I also keep rest periods pretty short with calf training â?? no longer than 60 seconds, but sometimes as short as 15-30 seconds.
I never bounce reps either â?? always get a good stretch, and a good contraction. Weâ??re training our muscles, not our tendons.
I still donâ??t consider myself to have great calves, but the aforementioned methods have allowed me to make some decent improvements this past offseason.
05-11-2011 20:5
Great, thanks for going into detail. Sounds like a good “auto-regulating” approach, probably something I’ll try in the future (i.e. high volume, less intensity per set but still pushing hard).
As for calves, one thing I still haven’t tried in all this time is putting them first in the workouts, I guess I should at some point. Also rest times have been 90-120 seconds for awhile now (1-2 years I would guess). I’m cutting now and don’t have access to any good calf exercises besides bodyweight ones over the summer but once I start bulking again in the fall I’ll see about putting them first, less rest time, and some extra intensity techniques. Not that I’m all that hopeful given the past, but if I’m gonna work them I might as well try everything.
I think the idea of doing hams before quads and leg presses before squats is the shit! John Meadows really knows his stuff
I feel my hams working much more throughout the workout, and im able to squat pain free (albeit at a much lighter working weight)…Still its better to squat light than never at all!