do both and cycle them. deadlift for a month, rack pull for a month.
/thread.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Bingo. My deadlift has increased a great deal more due to pulling submaximal weights for reps rather than trying to increase my max by maxing out all of the time.[/quote]
I learned this from 5/3/1. True fucking story.
[quote]giterdone wrote:
C_C I’m always impressed with the level of detail and consideration that you put into your posts.
[/quote] Thanks 
[quote]
I think one of the issues with beginners and intermediates (I’ll include myself in the latter) is impatience with strength levels. Even though higher reps might be the best choice for bodybuilding, the focus can slide toward getting the numbers respectable. The feeling is that once the numbers are to the point where they are not embarrassing, then you can “back off” and then work with higher reps.
Or, of course, I could just be projecting my own experience.[/quote]
No, I agree with you there… It feels a lot less embarassing as a complete beginner to do 190 for a single on the bench compared to 135x8… But being able to do more weight when only going for less reps/ a single rep doesn’t change the fact that you’re still only capable of using 135 for moderate reps, which equals small muscles whichever way you put it. 10x3 sure seems cool to small guys as they can use more weigth there per set, but really… It’s just trading weight for reps, it doesn’t actually mean that you’re suddenly stronger and it sure as hell is a lot tougher on the joints and tendons… (mostly writing this for the benefit of any beginners reading this, the people posting in this thread are obviously aware of all this stuff).
You’ll have to actually progress in whatever rep range you chose in order to get somewhere, size-wise…
And you’ll have to progress a lot farther in the 1-3 rep range usually to get even remotely the same amount of added size compared to the moderate ranges, and if know how to do things right you can, especially during the intermediate and beginner stages, progress at least as fast, if not faster(and safer), with moderate reps compared to very low reps.
To each his own, of course.
when trying to rack pull/deadlift with the primary focus on muscle development, should the scapula be retracted back and down?
Let me clear up a few things.
First, I was only refuting the not growing from lower reps thing. I do think you are wrong there. Every responds differently to rep ranges. I did not say you can’t grow from higher reps.
No, my training does not consist of a lot of max triples, doubles and singles, but it is in that rep range. I will do singles, doubles and triples on deads (or variations) but for as many as 8 sets.
My assistance work for my back is done differently than most. 1 exercise, rotating horizontal pull, vertical pull, shrug, each and every time in the gym.
I think my back is my best feature, and I built if focusing on low rep deadlifts. Take it for what it’s worth. I’ve had a pro bber ask me what I did for my back.
As for Bolton not having a good back, no one knows because it’s under some fat. It would be awesome to see a guy like that cut down. I also don’t think he deadlifts 200 pounds more than Ronnie. Ronnie, doubles (or did) 805 raw. Get him to max in a suit and it would probably be a lot closer. Not to mention the aesthetics of it have as much to do with muscle shape which is not related to size or growth.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
giterdone wrote:
C_C I’m always impressed with the level of detail and consideration that you put into your posts.
Thanks
I think one of the issues with beginners and intermediates (I’ll include myself in the latter) is impatience with strength levels. Even though higher reps might be the best choice for bodybuilding, the focus can slide toward getting the numbers respectable. The feeling is that once the numbers are to the point where they are not embarrassing, then you can “back off” and then work with higher reps.
Or, of course, I could just be projecting my own experience.
No, I agree with you there… It feels a lot less embarassing as a complete beginner to do 190 for a single on the bench compared to 135x8… But being able to do more weight when only going for less reps/ a single rep doesn’t change the fact that you’re still only capable of using 135 for moderate reps, which equals small muscles whichever way you put it. 10x3 sure seems cool to small guys as they can use more weigth there per set, but really… It’s just trading weight for reps, it doesn’t actually mean that you’re suddenly stronger and it sure as hell is a lot tougher on the joints and tendons… (mostly writing this for the benefit of any beginners reading this, the people posting in this thread are obviously aware of all this stuff).
You’ll have to actually progress in whatever rep range you chose in order to get somewhere, size-wise…
And you’ll have to progress a lot farther in the 1-3 rep range usually to get even remotely the same amount of added size compared to the moderate ranges, and if know how to do things right you can, especially during the intermediate and beginner stages, progress at least as fast, if not faster(and safer), with moderate reps compared to very low reps.
To each his own, of course.
[/quote]
I figured out some time ago that heavy all the time is not the smartest thing to do when it comes to getting big:). But I still sometimes struggle psychologically to not go too heavy and do what’s smart as opposed to doing what mentally feels good. Plus low rep all the time beats the shit out of my aging back and shoulders.
Back to the OP’s question, I do both but full deadlifts are sumo. Sumo is a recent addition. I had swapped out conventional full deads for rack pulls as full deads are too tough on my lower back even when super strict with form.
Rack pulls are on back day (every 2nd back day as a thickness exercise) and sumo deads are on leg day with squats (alternating between lower rep squat (back squat or zercher) / higher rep sumo or lower rep sumo / higher rep squat variation).
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
when trying to rack pull/deadlift with the primary focus on muscle development, should the scapula be retracted back and down? [/quote]
I’d only retract them at the top of the movement… Not sure if retracting them with that much weight on the bar is a good idea when you’re still bent-over at too much of an angle…
As for whether you should pull them down after retracting them, hm. I don’t pay specific attention to that part, to be honest. They’re probably going to be fairly far down as it is, after all you’re holding onto major weight there. Just retract them and get your shoulders back/chest out and don’t overarch when doing that.
I’d be interested to hear gluteus’ thoughts on the matter, as I recall a recent thread about AC joint separation…
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Let me clear up a few things.
First, I was only refuting the not growing from lower reps thing[/quote] I think the argument was that lower reps weren’t exactly the optimum for the situation here, not that they don’t allow for growth… And as I said, doing a ton of sets changes things to some degree. But for an aspriring bodybuilder, wasting half an hour or more on one exercise to get in 10 sets is not the greatest idea, even with deadlifts. [quote]I do think you are wrong there. Every responds differently to rep ranges. I did not say you can’t grow from higher reps.
No, my training does not consist of a lot of max triples, doubles and singles, but it is in that rep range. I will do singles, doubles and triples on deads (or variations) but for as many as 8 sets.
My assistance work for my back is done differently than most. 1 exercise, rotating horizontal pull, vertical pull, shrug, each and every time in the gym. [/quote] See, my back training consists of usually just 2 exercises per session… One for width (rack chins or similar), one for thickness (either rack pulls or floor deads, though I don’t do the latter anymore as I’m really not built right for them and the sumo variant I use for hamstrings, or a row variant, mostly kroc rows as they spare my low back and allow for far more load with decent technique per arm than any other row variation)
Fairly similar overall, though I let rack pulls take care of my traps rather than cycling shrugs in unless I’m doign a 5 or 6-way split, which I rarely the case.
Those 800/805 for a double was done bouncing though if I remember right… I don’t think he can actually deadlift more than 850-860 tops or so, perhaps less. (not that that’s a small deadlift! And he certainly has quite a bit of unused potential lying around, so to speak, and I’m not exactly a PL specialist either… So take my estimations for what they’re worth)
Bodybuilders of certain weight-classes/heights tend to sort of max out at certain strength levels due to the slowdown in muscle-growth and due to their training/strength gains being based around gaining muscle (in order to gain extra strength, which in turn allows for more muscle), rather than increasing relative strength…
So I don’t think Ronnie is benching or deadlifting much more now than he did in those vids a few years back either. You don’t get much stronger at 5’11 330 lbs in the off-season via that particular style of bb training, but I bet he could add quite a bit to his hypothetical total via dedicated PL training and technique optimization.
I have absolutely no experience with deadlift suits, however… I only heard that you don’t get much out of them due to the mechanics of the lift vs. the squat or bench press (where you can easily aid the primary joint(s) via suit)… How much does someone like Bolton get out of a suit?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Let me clear up a few things.
First, I was only refuting the not growing from lower reps thing I think the argument was that lower reps weren’t exactly the optimum for the situation here, not that they don’t allow for growth… And as I said, doing a ton of sets changes things to some degree. But for an aspriring bodybuilder, wasting half an hour or more on one exercise to get in 10 sets is not the greatest idea, even with deadlifts. I do think you are wrong there. Every responds differently to rep ranges. I did not say you can’t grow from higher reps.
No, my training does not consist of a lot of max triples, doubles and singles, but it is in that rep range. I will do singles, doubles and triples on deads (or variations) but for as many as 8 sets.
My assistance work for my back is done differently than most. 1 exercise, rotating horizontal pull, vertical pull, shrug, each and every time in the gym. See, my back training consists of usually just 2 exercises per session… One for width (rack chins or similar), one for thickness (either rack pulls or floor deads, though I don’t do the latter anymore as I’m really not built right for them and the sumo variant I use for hamstrings, or a row variant, mostly kroc rows as they spare my low back and allow for far more load with decent technique per arm than any other row variation)
Fairly similar overall, though I let rack pulls take care of my traps rather than cycling shrugs in unless I’m doign a 5 or 6-way split, which I rarely the case.
I think my back is my best feature, and I built if focusing on low rep deadlifts. Take it for what it’s worth. I’ve had a pro bber ask me what I did for my back.
As for Bolton not having a good back, no one knows because it’s under some fat He’ll have crazy erectors, that’s for sure. But I doubt that he’ll stand a chance against Ronnie’s upper back… Not just muscle-shape-wise. . It would be awesome to see a guy like that cut down. Several have, but you can never tell where their back really came from… As most do heavy multi-rep assistance work as well… Matt K’s back definitely doesn’t come from his deadlift training (alone) (save his erectors), but rather from his 300lbx12 or so DB rows… His back literally exploded when he originally started upping the reps on his DB rows so he got 225x25 or so.
I still think that moderate to high rep rack pulls with scapular retraction etc after each lockout are the absolute “best” backthickness exercise, but I’d (upper/mid-back-wise) choose kroc rows over them if
a) low back issues exist or you just don’t want to blast the low-back too often per week
b) to balance out benching/shoulder health. Dead variations don’t quite do that.
c) if the rack pulls/deads were done for very low reps. I’d say a 250x20 kroc row beats a 700 lb deadlit single, double, triple easily in the back size gain department, even 8x3 with 600, except for the low back area (obviously, as krocs do very little for that) and perhaps upper part of the traps (vs. 8x3 with 600, though that also depends on the angle at which you’re rowing and your technique).
I also don’t think he deadlifts 200 pounds more than Ronnie. Ronnie, doubles (or did) 805 raw. Get him to max in a suit and it would probably be a lot closer. Not to mention the aesthetics of it have as much to do with muscle shape which is not related to size or growth.
Those 800/805 for a double was done bouncing though if I remember right… I don’t think he can actually deadlift more than 850-860 tops or so, perhaps less. (not that that’s a small deadlift! And he certainly has quite a bit of unused potential lying around, so to speak, and I’m not exactly a PL specialist either… So take my estimations for what they’re worth)
Bodybuilders of certain weight-classes/heights tend to sort of max out at certain strength levels due to the slowdown in muscle-growth and due to their training/strength gains being based around gaining muscle (in order to gain extra strength, which in turn allows for more muscle), rather than increasing relative strength…
So I don’t think Ronnie is benching or deadlifting much more now than he did in those vids a few years back either. You don’t get much stronger at 5’11 330 lbs in the off-season via that particular style of bb training, but I bet he could add quite a bit to his hypothetical total via dedicated PL training and technique optimization.
I have absolutely no experience with deadlift suits, however… I only heard that you don’t get much out of them due to the mechanics of the lift vs. the squat or bench press (where you can easily aid the primary joint(s) via suit)… How much does someone like Bolton get out of a suit?
[/quote]
A ton of sets at a low rep range is still a low rep range. You can get the same volume without increasing rep range. You can also increase volume through training frequency.
It only takes a lot longer to get through 8 sets if you are using the same rest times as your 6-8 rep sets. I also pull what works out to about 1.5 times a week as a volume side note.
My point about Bolton is that lack of muscle growth is not his aesthetic problem.
You can no more claim that the PLers with â??goodâ?? backs like krock got them from higher rep assistance work than I can claim guys like Jonny Jackson and Ronnie Colman got their muscular backs from their basis in powerlifting style low rep deadlift work. Maybe ronniesâ?? back was great because he did heavy singles and double for so many years. That street goes 2 ways.
In addition, increasing your max will help to increase the weight used on higher rep sets (allowing for better growth) the same way higher rep set will increase your max. Thatâ??s a 2 way street too.
So many top body builders wouldnâ??t use low rep deads if they didnâ??t grow thick muscular backs. Top powerlifters wouldnâ??t do the assistance work if it didnâ??t add weight to their deads (upper back muscularity is related to deadlift capacity).
I do my deads the way I do in large part because I feel they are safer on my back. I can use heavy weight, get plenty of volume, and donâ??t have the dangerous technique breakdowns on the latter reps due to fatigue in a set. Iâ??ve only ever hurt my back on higher (6-8) rep sets for deads and squats. (it also eliminates my need for straps) So I do have my reasons for doing things the way I do.
I agree that it ainâ??t a one size fits all situation. Some people arenâ??t built to pull heavy or from the floor and they shouldnâ??t. Strength increase may not directly translate to size, but it can lead to it by increasing the weight used on your higher rep work. You have to feel out your own body. Low rep work may not be a good idea for some, but I definitely think it can be part of an optimized BBing program for many.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
A ton of sets at a low rep range is still a low rep range. You can get the same volume without increasing rep range. You can also increase volume through training frequency.
It only takes a lot longer to get through 8 sets if you are using the same rest times as your 6-8 rep sets. I also pull what works out to about 1.5 times a week as a volume side note.
My point about Bolton is that lack of muscle growth is not his aesthetic problem.
You can no more claim that the PLers with â??goodâ?? backs like krock got them from higher rep assistance work[/quote] Why not? Extremely high DB row numbers for high reps = lots of muscle-growth… I don’t think you can really dispute that part. [quote] than I can claim guys like Jonny Jackson and Ronnie Colman got their muscular backs from their basis in powerlifting style low rep deadlift work. Maybe ronniesâ?? back was great because he did heavy singles and double for so many years[/quote] He only did powerlifting at the very beginning and not for all that long, neither did he get all that large during that time. Later on, he only maxed out or went low-rep on rare occasions:
- every now and again to see where he was at
- during training vids
He does comment in his book as well in which ranges he usually stays etc… But I get your point. [quote]. That street goes 2 ways.
In addition, increasing your max will help to increase the weight used on higher rep sets (allowing for better growth) the same way higher rep set will increase your max. Thatâ??s a 2 way street too.
[/quote] Sure, but you will actually have to work in that higher range to really get the kind of adaption that working it that range usually causes in the body or at least keep your set-volume constantly high if you want to just do low reps all the time…
Anyway, look at Waterbury… If 10x3 and 20x1 were such great method for size, I dunno… You’d expect a different physique, no?
And yeah, you asked me whether I’ve ever seen someone dling 500 lbs who doesn’t look like much:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zIOPpJ-Qnc (weird way to deadlift… But hey, he got the weight up)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd3YCjgy8AY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riDOo3eEaak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF9yjQBb2Rw
Anyway, just a bunch of random youtube vids… There you go, the body does not need to be very muscular to even deadlift 500 lbs… So it won’t add muscle unless you force it to in some way, and some ways cause it to add more muscle than others.
That’s why you get guys deadlifting 500 lbs for a max single who have fairly big traps and definitely no small back… And guys who
look like they just ended the beginner stage… And guys who look like they never lifted a weight in their life unless you take off their shirt and look for their back musculature with an electron microscope. Many ways to get to a 500 lb deadlift single, but there are far fewer ways to get to 600, 700 and even less to get beyond that (if you can manage it at all).
Agreed on some of that.
I would worry that you are avoiding that lower ROM deadlift due to a lack of flexibility in the posterior chain. If your flexibility is bad enough at the beginning of a deadlift to make it that hard for you, you probably also lack the flexibility to perform a proper deep squat as well. Am I on point with the flexibility issue? As far as your back goes, the other posters seem to have nailed what should work for you, I just wouldnt want you avoiding deadlifts because of a lack of flexibility.
Not deadlifting because you dont like what they do for you as much as a rack pull is one thing. Not deadlifting because you cant is a different story and will catch up with you one way or another. From my experience not having the flexibility to deadlift indicates you do not have the flexibility to perform ANY leg exercise through a full ROM, meaning the hip is engaged from the beginning.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I would worry that you are avoiding that lower ROM deadlift due to a lack of flexibility in the posterior chain. If your flexibility is bad enough at the beginning of a deadlift to make it that hard for you, you probably also lack the flexibility to perform a proper deep squat as well. Am I on point with the flexibility issue? As far as your back goes, the other posters seem to have nailed what should work for you, I just wouldnt want you avoiding deadlifts because of a lack of flexibility.
Not deadlifting because you dont like what they do for you as much as a rack pull is one thing. Not deadlifting because you cant is a different story and will catch up with you one way or another. From my experience not having the flexibility to deadlift indicates you do not have the flexibility to perform ANY leg exercise through a full ROM, meaning the hip is engaged from the beginning.[/quote]
I know this isn’t about me personally, but I figured I’d share this anyway:
I can actually squat fairly deep without spinal rounding or anything, provided I go high bar and with a somewhat wider stance.
Pretty harsh on my hip joints though due to an issue I’ll adress further down. So when squatting I nowadays just break parallel and leave it at that.
But getting into conventional floor-dead position is just not possible for me unless I do round my spine/let heels come off the ground. Ham/calf inflexibility to some degree around the knee as well as my structure in general (arm length etc… There’s a reason beyond size for why I can press so much compared to most on here)…
May also have something to do with the way the upper leg bone is attached to the hip. Some guys’ bones are shaped somewhat differently around the attachment site than others, those are the ones who can naturally kick high without having to lean back from the hip joint etc.
Going beyond the joints’ natural ROM is not a good thing though… Only going to end in hip issues further down the line, just like overstretching the shoulder-capsule/joint.
Never truly managed to fix my conv. dead issues and so I’ve switched to sumo deads and rack pulls. Spending most of my life seated in front of one screen or another until I turned 20 most definitely has something to do with this (and my stubborn hamstrings) as well.
So yeah, if there’s any way to fix that, do it, OP…
Never good to just leave such issues be if you still have options to make them go away
Nice post Shadow.
RE: retracting the scapula early in a dead/rack pull?
No way would I want anyone doing that, the torque on the shoulder is very high, and to attempt to retract the scapula would place the joint and associated musculature, especially the rotator cuff, at high risk of injury. Basically what would happen as you were coming up (and retracting) is that in an angled trunk position you would concentrically retract the scapula, but the musculature around the shoulder is small relative to what is being moved at the angle so they would be eccentrically damaged as the scapula was forced to protract. Once you were in a relatively vertical position, you could look to retract, but waiting till the top is the safest best.
At the top of the dead/rack, the load being held below your shoulder line will already be depressing the scapula - no need for further active depression. Retraction is relatively safe here as alot of other muscles around the shoulder are now engaged in maintaining tension, compared to the bottom position where the movement/stability is being provided from the leg/erector/lat muscle groups.
(I actually got some of that wrong above, I when referring to the guys with the more favorable hip bone attachment shape, I meant that they can do a high kick to the side while staying fairly upright, i.e. their hip joints have a larger lateral ROM in particular, but it also seems that their frontal rom is much greater compared to mine, for example. The lateral ROM comes into play more in squats with a wider stance. Sumo deads with a very wide stance generally reduce ROM so much that lateral hip joint ROM doesn’t matter much. They certainly do in my case and I’m glad for that… )
[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
Nice post Shadow.
RE: retracting the scapula early in a dead/rack pull?
No way would I want anyone doing that, the torque on the shoulder is very high, and to attempt to retract the scapula would place the joint and associated musculature, especially the rotator cuff, at high risk of injury. Basically what would happen as you were coming up (and retracting) is that in an angled trunk position you would concentrically retract the scapula, but the musculature around the shoulder is small relative to what is being moved at the angle so they would be eccentrically damaged as the scapula was forced to protract. Once you were in a relatively vertical position, you could look to retract, but waiting till the top is the safest best.
[/quote] Ah, I guessed right then Thanks for clearing it up.[quote]
At the top of the dead/rack, the load being held below your shoulder line will already be depressing the scapula - no need for further active depression. Retraction is relatively safe here as alot of other muscles around the shoulder are now engaged in maintaining tension, compared to the bottom position where the movement/stability is being provided from the leg/erector/lat muscle groups.[/quote]
Great minds think alike, though your thoughts seem to be more complex than mine 
You got any handy stretches or such for someone being unable to touch his toes with his hands while standing bent-over unless that someone where to round his back?
(curiously enough, I’ve always been the overall most flexible person back at school compared to anyone else in the PE lessons I took part in… I could do that funny yoga/meditation thing where you sit down cross-legged but with your feet on top rather than below your legs without having to use my hands at all… The only thing I’ve never been able to do is touch my toes without a rounded back, damnit… Basic DC ham/calf stretches have helped though, but still.
Some people seem to be able to just bend at the hip joint with no low-back rounding when standing or sitting on the ground, legs straight completely and touch their toes even with arms as short as mine… Screw them, damn ballerinas!
That is the issue preventing me from doing a conv. deadlift with fairly straight legs, or any kind of deficit pull.
Still can’t do a conv. dead even when squatting way down…
Ah that makes sense; I read an article by a big name dude saying that the shoulder blades should be back the whole time while deadlifting. So I will just try to pull the bar back while or right after I lockout.
To CC
Some of this you are crossing low rep with maxing out, they aren’t necessarily the same thing just like moderate reps and light weight.
I’ll have to take your word about the pros training. I just know I’ve seen the youtube of them doing it. But I guess you are saying some of the pros didn’t “build their bases” in powerlifting I’m wrong. I know three are some like buoy (sp) that claim to use a lot of low rep work.
Only 2 of the vids look like a legit dl and we can see none of their backs.
I do however agree that there is nothing magical about a 500 lbs deadlift. Personal progression is key, but that has nothing to do with rep range.
But pretty much all of what you are saying on leverages factoring into the lift apply equally, if not more to all the other lifts. Guys that can bench 300 generally look like that can bench 300, guys that pull 500 generally look like they pull 500. No, not a concrete thing, but a pretty good rule of thumb.
Technique/leverage improvement factors into higher rep ranges also not exclusively low reps. You get better technique, 6 reps of 405 is going to get easier.
You last point I need to investigate more. It sounds fishy. Higher reps are generally more taxing on the nervous system. Seems like that would lead to greater nervous adaptations. Not saying your wrong, just seems funny. Nervous system adaptation I always to more as a rep speed area. Explosive lifting leads to nervous system adaptation. May just be a TUT thing.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
Ah that makes sense; I read an article by a big name dude saying that the shoulder blades should be back the whole time while deadlifting. So I will just try to pull the bar back while or right after I lockout.[/quote]
What you don’t want is for someone to be too “forward” or internally rotated at the shoulders during the early part of the lift. That wouldn’t be good long term either. Ideally, you want a relatively normal shoulder posture throughout the movement, prior to an active retraction at the end.
oh yeah, and scapula retraction is quite different to the idiots who hyperextend through their thoracic spines, or those that hinge around T12/L1 and lean back.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You got any handy stretches or such for someone being unable to touch his toes with his hands while standing bent-over unless that someone where to round his back?
[/quote]
Good mornings! LOL