[quote]forlife wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
don’t confuse maturity and principle with strength,
How does maturity and aligning your life with core principles not demonstrate strength?[/quote]
I am not saying they are bad things, but I would say to allow others to shut your mouth when you know it should be heard is a sign of weakness, even if it doesn not follow polite politics.
I guess it is perspective, how do you define weakness?
I would say being a submissive is a weak trait,
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
?[/quote]
Depends.
In many situations (remember, I teach self-defense) manners make the best anger management. A bit of politeness can go a long way to defusing a tense situation. Most societies without a functional law enforcement agency put high value indeed on civility. “A well-armed society is a polite one”.
Also, as a simply practical matter, being polite to someone who is probably aching to thrash you allows you to judge their intent much better for the later trial.
On the other hand, we live in a service-oriented economy. There is no reason in the world for you to be civil to anyone since you can buy what you need (as opposed to having to rely on the goodwill of your fellow tribespersons). Since this is the case for most people (in the first world), it has become stock to think that being an asshole shows independence and strength. Just be sure some twist of fate won’t put you on the losing side of these people in the future. Pissing off that guy down the street feels great, until it turns out he’s going to end up as your son’s new father-in-law…
Finally, “kiss the hand you cannot bite” (an old Arab saying) is still good advice in dealing with your boss. Finding the right mix of being civil but still sticking to your guns when you are right is an art. If you figure out how to do it, let me know.
And as always, I might just be full of shit…
– jj
Never, ever mistake kindness for weakness.
Civility is a function of respect, and civility in a debate means you are starting with the presumption that people you disagree with are arguing and acting in good faith - the presumption that people you disagree with are merely wrong, not evil or motivated by some other agenda than what they are saying.
If you start with a different presumption, all you have done is plowed the land with salt and ruined any chance of civility growing.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Never, ever mistake kindness for weakness.
Civility is a function of respect, and civility in a debate means you are starting with the presumption that people you disagree with are arguing and acting in good faith - the presumption that people you disagree with are merely wrong, not evil or motivated by some other agenda than what they are saying.
If you start with a different presumption, all you have done is plowed the land with salt and ruined any chance of civility growing.
[/quote]
“Never, ever, mistake kindness for weakness.” This is one of my favorite sayings, and I agree completely with the rest of your post.
I believe this thread is the result to my response to Pittbull’s assertion that Ronald Reagan should have been assassinated. I strive to remain civil on this or any other forum. However, this statement was so ignorant and/or evil in my opinion that I temporarily dropped by self imposed rule of conduct.
I neither regret not retract my statement.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
I would argue in most circumstance, including the one that probably provoked this question yes, and here is my argument;
By most definitions of being civil, you are required to be submissive, in order to be submissive you must under something, whether it be a person or some kind of governing body(not necessarily government. You are weak at that point in time. You are not the dominant entity or being. So yes you are showing weakness.
I will use training a working dog as an example. If you show weakness, do not prtray yourself as the confident dominant leader at all times, your dog will lose respect in you ability to lead it and will eventually challenge that respect and authority. You must never allow you dog to dominate you everything must be done under your rules and there is no requesting it is commanding.
The difference here is it seems that some of the people in the administration don’t realize that we are not trained dogs, we don’t take commands and don’t them as a higher more supreme being. At least I don’t. I will not follow unquestioningly.
I think given the social contructs of today’s multicultural environments, civility is circumstantial. It depends on the context on whether rules of polite politics shold be followed. When it is obvious that the other party views you as an inferior then tables need to be turned to reestablish the relationship or you will constantly be the weaker player. [/quote]
LOL at your dog analogy when you obviously own a pitbull - a breed whose natural disposition is submissive to man 
Anyway, I’d like to know the context of the question. Perhaps it was purposefully vague. One thing is for sure, you can judge the character of some here by the replies.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
I would argue in most circumstance, including the one that probably provoked this question yes, and here is my argument;
By most definitions of being civil, you are required to be submissive, in order to be submissive you must under something, whether it be a person or some kind of governing body(not necessarily government. You are weak at that point in time. You are not the dominant entity or being. So yes you are showing weakness.
I will use training a working dog as an example. If you show weakness, do not prtray yourself as the confident dominant leader at all times, your dog will lose respect in you ability to lead it and will eventually challenge that respect and authority. You must never allow you dog to dominate you everything must be done under your rules and there is no requesting it is commanding.
The difference here is it seems that some of the people in the administration don’t realize that we are not trained dogs, we don’t take commands and don’t them as a higher more supreme being. At least I don’t. I will not follow unquestioningly.
I think given the social contructs of today’s multicultural environments, civility is circumstantial. It depends on the context on whether rules of polite politics shold be followed. When it is obvious that the other party views you as an inferior then tables need to be turned to reestablish the relationship or you will constantly be the weaker player.
LOL at your dog analogy when you obviously own a pitbull - a breed whose natural disposition is submissive to man
Anyway, I’d like to know the context of the question. Perhaps it was purposefully vague. One thing is for sure, you can judge the character of some here by the replies.
[/quote]
My pits are the pets love the purpose they were bred for, uncle was a doggman before it became illegal so I grew up around them, I have donavan pinscher for protection, before that had a presa canario.
And if you mean I am very animalistic in my view of behavior and social construct yes. After all we are the “Moral Animal” right? Oh wait I believe in God I can’t use those arguments.
I am a dogman. You understood my point. No need to dominate a correctly tempermented apbt. The other breeds yes. Interesting that you own a donovan pincher. Reaching out to the man that created them as we speak - not that I want one. I don’t care for aggressive dogs at all. The only other dogs I own are patterdale terriers (I do a fair deal of terrier work) and a dogo argentino (I hunt boar when I can down south).
I’d still like to know the context of the OP. I think we are animals. I also think, that cooperation and “civility” as you call it is necessary to our survival and it was need for “civilization” as we know it - it is how we went from band, tribe, city, state, nation…
Presa? LOL. Surprised you’d own such a shit eater given your experience around your uncle. You couldn’t give me a presa. Nothing beats a well bred apbt or, the smaller terriers for that matter. I can protect myself. Most dogs will NEVER take a bite in defense of its property anyway - its all deterrent, rendering a toy poodle barking as “effective” as your donovan pincher barking.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I am a dogman. You understood my point. No need to dominate a correctly tempermented apbt. The other breeds yes. Interesting that you own a donovan pincher. Reaching out to the man that created them as we speak - not that I want one. I don’t care for aggressive dogs at all. The only other dogs I own are patterdale terriers (I do a fair deal of terrier work) and a dogo argentino (I hunt boar when I can down south).
I’d still like to know the context of the OP. I think we are animals. I also think, that cooperation and “civility” as you call it is necessary to our survival and it was need for “civilization” as we know it - it is how we went from band, tribe, city, state, nation…
Presa? LOL. Surprised you’d own such a shit eater given your experience around your uncle. You couldn’t give me a presa. Nothing beats a well bred apbt or, the smaller terriers for that matter. I can protect myself. Most dogs will NEVER take a bite in defense of its property anyway - its all deterrent, rendering a toy poodle barking as “effective” as your donovan pincher barking.[/quote]
Well with good game dogs you know that they are great with other dogs, unless the other dog is a threat or disrespectful in the way it acts, then it will end the problem.
Like I said being civil has it’s place, even weakness has it’s place, but is still weakness. The strongest man must temper his strength when playing with his children. But when there is a threat or there is disrespect on the innate level you need to quelch it. I think most people have been so pacified by the false sense of civility, they cannot even recognize the cues or even atacks of others.
I have done executive protection work on top of training to fight and it is so evident with a majority of helpless schlops out there, the one moto that sticks with and my wife hates but has helped us on on many occassions dealing with people. Hope for the best prepare for the worst.
showing your weakness is a sign of trust, but when that trust is broken the person forfeited the civility they would normally be shown.
Back on the topic of dogs, Got the donavan when Dom was out in Dallas, PA for a while. The protection dogs are for my family when I am not around or at night, I have a rednose and the donavan sleep in their room.
Got rid of the Presa when my wife first got pregnant, a friend actually gave him to me at around 5 months, he spent the first 3 months living on a farm doing whatever he wanted, killing animals for food. He didn’t want to be around people, was so scittish. But after workign with him for a while he came a round real well, but he bonded so well to my wife and I it scard me to have a baby near him, but he wasn’t a barker, he genuinely wanted at everyone else to rip their intestines out. you know that scream of something dying pits make to get at each other sometimes, that was the sound he made to get at someone acting aggressive. When we lived near rutgers at new brunswick he stopped 2 break ins.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
I am a dogman. You understood my point. No need to dominate a correctly tempermented apbt. The other breeds yes. Interesting that you own a donovan pincher. Reaching out to the man that created them as we speak - not that I want one. I don’t care for aggressive dogs at all. The only other dogs I own are patterdale terriers (I do a fair deal of terrier work) and a dogo argentino (I hunt boar when I can down south).
I’d still like to know the context of the OP. I think we are animals. I also think, that cooperation and “civility” as you call it is necessary to our survival and it was need for “civilization” as we know it - it is how we went from band, tribe, city, state, nation…
Presa? LOL. Surprised you’d own such a shit eater given your experience around your uncle. You couldn’t give me a presa. Nothing beats a well bred apbt or, the smaller terriers for that matter. I can protect myself. Most dogs will NEVER take a bite in defense of its property anyway - its all deterrent, rendering a toy poodle barking as “effective” as your donovan pincher barking.
Well with good game dogs you know that they are great with other dogs, unless the other dog is a threat or disrespectful in the way it acts, then it will end the problem.
Like I said being civil has it’s place, even weakness has it’s place, but is still weakness. The strongest man must temper his strength when playing with his children. But when there is a threat or there is disrespect on the innate level you need to quelch it. I think most people have been so pacified by the false sense of civility, they cannot even recognize the cues or even atacks of others.
I have done executive protection work on top of training to fight and it is so evident with a majority of helpless schlops out there, the one moto that sticks with and my wife hates but has helped us on on many occassions dealing with people. Hope for the best prepare for the worst.
showing your weakness is a sign of trust, but when that trust is broken the person forfeited the civility they would normally be shown.
Back on the topic of dogs, Got the donavan when Dom was out in Dallas, PA for a while. The protection dogs are for my family when I am not around or at night, I have a rednose and the donavan sleep in their room.
Got rid of the Presa when my wife first got pregnant, a friend actually gave him to me at around 5 months, he spent the first 3 months living on a farm doing whatever he wanted, killing animals for food. He didn’t want to be around people, was so scittish. But after workign with him for a while he came a round real well, but he bonded so well to my wife and I it scard me to have a baby near him, but he wasn’t a barker, he genuinely wanted at everyone else to rip their intestines out. you know that scream of something dying pits make to get at each other sometimes, that was the sound he made to get at someone acting aggressive. When we lived near rutgers at new brunswick he stopped 2 break ins.
[/quote]
I don’t want to hi-jack this into a dog thread. We can always PM. I do executive protection also - for many years, high profile. I don’t know if I agree with you on this weakness thing but it may be a typical translation thing on the internet OP dropped a grenade and is chuckling watching everyone juggle it. There can be no intelligent discussion about the topic without context. Everyone here thus far has put their own twist on context.
PS, I’ve had them for 20 years now, separated more than my share of puppies at a mere 10 weeks old. Don’t know which ones you’ve been around, but ours don’t tolerate other dogs period. The chain space is a roach motel - roaches can go in, but never get out. And that’s why we have breeding stands Your presa was garbage and you know it and he should have eaten a bullet Skittish = unfit to breath air and you sound knowledgeable enough to know that, so no offense :). Bad nerves are the best reason to PTS.
Any dog snarling behind a door will stop a break in. But I need to be able to trust a dog with my family and even strangers. At my house, I’m the only one that snarls behind the door - and I’m snarling to get at you, and I do bite If I’m not there, dial 911, and aim and shoot if necessary. But frankly, anyone lurking will hear dogs - assume one is in the house and probably pass us by as a poor target.