Do Dems Have New Ideas?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
vroom wrote:

Face it, Jesus needs to be split, he is not a child of either party alone.

No, I agree with this – I was just wondering how you were bringing him in on the liberal side, implying favoring big government tax-and-spend programs that claim to help, but often hurt, the poor.[/quote]

As opposed to the Republican’s big govenment cut-taxes-but somehow-increase-spending-at-the-same-time programs that din’t even claim they were going to help and always hurt the poor.

The right has lost all…well, right to the claim that the democrats spend too much after President Loony McBombsalot.

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[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
That’s entirely irrelevant to the point, which is that you’re reading a whole lot more into the quote than is there if you’re reading in stuff about the power of business in government.

vroom wrote:
No, you are choosing to characterize my statements in a way that you feel comfortable addressing. That’s fine, I mean, that is how politics is played.

Nonetheless, a government that looks after the needs of the rich, as opposed to the poor, is not one that Jesus would approve of.

You can twist that any way you like, but at the core, Jesus was about looking after his fellow man. That’s hard to argue with.[/quote]

Yes, your last clause is hard to argue with. Your characterization that a conservative government is more likely to fit that description than a liberal government, and thus that Jesus would approve of the liberal government, is what I’m taking issue with.

BTW vroom, your favorite straw man aside, these aren’t talking points. They’re responses to your assertions.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Let’s consider the context: he’s talking about a rich guy getting in to heaven.

Time period: Roman empire, post-Republic.

vroom wrote:
The context matters? Oh my, you are going to piss off a lot of fundamentalists if you aren’t careful here. My guess is that a lot of people in the upper echelons of big business are exceedingly rich. These are generally the people that prefer a Republican government.

You connect those dots. You spin it. You do whatever you want. The writing is on the wall and the fundamentalist Christian right will see it when it is pointed out to them.[/quote]

Of course the context matters. The context always matters in the interpretation of language.

Your attempt at going from rich to Republican to conservative is kind of funny, given your strident attempts to separate liberal from Democrat.

And of course, a lot of the very richest folks are also the most liberal… So take your generalizations with a grain of salt.

The bottom line is you shouldn’t try to pull Jesus in on your side of a political argument. Particularly when your necessary assumption is one side is “for helping the poor” and one side isn’t, which is fairly ridiculous.

I suppose one side supports nuclear waste in streams too, because they disagree with your proposed environmental regulations?

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I think if he wanted to speak about corrupt governments not looking out for the downtrodden, he could have made that point.

vroom wrote:
Oh, I take it you think I was talking about corrupt government in particular because that’s a common talking point? Sorry. You keep going down roads that have prepared talking points… but I’m afraid they aren’t going to help you here.[/quote]

No, I think that because this thread is about U.S. government, Professor X’s response, to which I was responding, was about U.S. government, and you continually try to back track on your points when they become obviously ridiculous. I guess that’s easy to do when you’re a vague writer.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Now, to jump to an implication that it’s a quote on corporate power? Please.

vroom wrote:
Corporate power? It’s the unholy affinity between the rich, who aren’t going to heaven, and the Republicans, who are WELL KNOWN for being more popular amongst big business (a good stand in for the wealthy). They are more willing to pander to profits, for the rich, and everyone knows this.[/quote]

Aha, now I see it: Jesus hates business. He must have been a communist. Thanks for clearing that up vroom. (And thanks for the ALL CAPS too – I submit to the force of your shift key).

BTW, it’s not impossible for the rich to go to heaven, any more than it’s impossible for someone to walk on water and feed 5000 with a couple fish and loaves – you just need to depend on the right power to get it done…

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
All completely irrelevant to the quote. YOu can speculate all you’d like, but then you really shouldn’t get mad at the social conservatives for doing the same, now should you?

vroom wrote:
Maybe you haven’t figured out what I’m talking about yet? I’m talking about the fact that Jesus will also side with liberals on some issues. You might want to get your head out of the talking points and take note of that.[/quote]

I know what point you’re trying to make, and I’m telling you that you speculating on where Jesus would come down on political issues is no different from the “Religious Right” that you like to denegrate. Two sides of the same coin.

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
No, I don’t like it either – so why are you trying to do the same thing from the other side?
[/quote]

LOL. Uh-huh.

Anyway, the Republicans are finding it very effective to act as if they have the “lock” on Christianity, so they sure aren’t going to stop, regardless of any supposed dislike some may have for it.

I think it is time for Democrats to realize that the Republicans consider themselves at war with anyone who has a viewpoint other than their own. The Democrats are deluded, defective and dangerous in the eyes of Republicans and they feel it is important not to let them have power.

If Democrats continue to play old style politics they will lose.

The Republicans are trying to gerrymander them out of seats. The Republicans are admittedly trying to lock them out of the funding race. The Republicans are trying to use divisive issues to energize a religious base to keep themselves in power.

Democrats need to realize that the only stance the Republicans seem to understand is warfare. So be it. Wake up and fight, fair mind you, but at least start fighting. The Republicans certainly aren’t pulling any punches or fighting fair, but hopefully the Dems will try to take the upper road.

I think the Dems are waking up. They have started to call for reaching out and using religion (maybe they are listening to me)…

Get serious about homeland security, admit it is time to find ways to fight the entitlement and disincentive programs of the past which are an albatross, clean up corruption in washington and find a serious strategy to deal with the threat of terrorism and an appropriate plan for determining how to deal with Iraq.

By the way, getting serious about homeland security also implies locking down the border.

That’s a winner.

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I know what point you’re trying to make, and I’m telling you that you speculating on where Jesus would come down on political issues is no different from the “Religious Right” that you like to denegrate. Two sides of the same coin.
[/quote]

Boston, if you haven’t noticed, this thread is about what the Democrats have to do to get elected.

That’s generally what I’m talking about.

Whether or not wrapping yourself in the robes of Jesus is right or wrong, nobody, not even you, is punishing the Republicans for doing so.

It’s obviously allowed, and hence necessary, for both parties to play the same game.

Only a person fighting for an exclusive Republican use of Christianity would argue against this. I see you arguing against it. I know why. Because, if the Democrats are successful at pointing out issues that clearly side with their viewpoints then the Republicans will lose.

Splitting the religious vote would be tremendously huge.

Of course you hate the very idea that certain issues and behaviors of Republicans are the antithesis of the message of Jesus. You have to. You are a die-hard Bush is a demigod Kool-Aid drinker, you have no choice.

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Term limits is my answer to all of this. Republican, Democrat – actually it doesn’t seem to matter much anymore.

We have Bush spending like a liberal, Bush and other Republicans wanting to reward people for breaking and entering our country, and the Democrats just hating Bush but coming up with no ideas, or as with Hillary, playing both sides of the game.

IT IS TIME THAT WE TOOK BACK OUR CONGRESS AND DEMANDED TERM LIMITS.

Then, perhaps, these people would begin to do what is right for our country and for the people.

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
IT IS TIME THAT WE TOOK BACK OUR CONGRESS AND DEMANDED TERM LIMITS.
[/quote]

Boston, are you going to be consistent and chastise Steveo for his use of all caps?

LOL. What are the odds…

67

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I know what point you’re trying to make, and I’m telling you that you speculating on where Jesus would come down on political issues is no different from the “Religious Right” that you like to denegrate. Two sides of the same coin.

vroom wrote:
Boston, if you haven’t noticed, this thread is about what the Democrats have to do to get elected.

That’s generally what I’m talking about.[/quote]

Then generally talk about that, and avoid specifically making the arguments I was criticizing.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Whether or not wrapping yourself in the robes of Jesus is right or wrong, nobody, not even you, is punishing the Republicans for doing so.[/quote]

I’m not punishing anyone. I’m criticizing you, and I’m criticizing Jerry Fallwell too. When I go to church, I don’t want the preacher trying to tell me about politics – and when I’m arguing politics, I really don’t want you or the Republicans or the Democrats telling me about religion.

So, my point is: don’t be a hypocrite. Don’t do what you’re criticizing.

If your point is the Democrats should try to use religion the same way Republicans have, fair point. But you went beyond that point when you started talking about Jesus and liberal policies.

[quote]vroom wrote:
It’s obviously allowed, and hence necessary, for both parties to play the same game.[/quote]

See above.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Only a person fighting for an exclusive Republican use of Christianity would argue against this. I see you arguing against it. I know why. Because, if the Democrats are successful at pointing out issues that clearly side with their viewpoints then the Republicans will lose.[/quote]

Ah, I love false dichotomies. I can play that game too, watch: Only an idiot would argue against my points above. I see you’re arguing against them. I know why.

My point, again, is don’t be a hypocrite.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Splitting the religious vote would be tremendously huge.[/quote]

You may be correct. Though I think you’d find that some of the block you ascribe to religion is really just socially conservative, and also religious.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Of course you hate the very idea that certain issues and behaviors of Republicans are the antithesis of the message of Jesus. You have to. You are a die-hard Bush is a demigod Kool-Aid drinker, you have no choice.[/quote]

You all have some deep reserves in the colon today from whence you pull these things: what does Bush have to do with this argument?

And again, quit being a hypocrite.

68

[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
IT IS TIME THAT WE TOOK BACK OUR CONGRESS AND DEMANDED TERM LIMITS.

Boston, are you going to be consistent and chastise Steveo for his use of all caps?

LOL. What are the odds…

[/quote]

I would if I were responding to him, but I’m having more fun arguing with you.

But SteveO knows that Jesus hates ALL CAPS.

69

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Then generally talk about that, and avoid specifically making the arguments I was criticizing.[/quote]

Fuck off.

[quote]I’m not punishing anyone. I’m criticizing you, and I’m criticizing Jerry Fallwell too. When I go to church, I don’t want the preacher trying to tell me about politics – and when I’m arguing politics, I really don’t want you or the Republicans or the Democrats telling me about religion.

So, my point is: don’t be a hypocrite. Don’t do what you’re criticizing.[/quote]

No, you are once again, big surprise, missing the issue. The issue is that nobody is punishing the Republicans for doign this. In fact, they are being rewarded by getting votes, including your vote.

I am not the one criticizing the Republicans, I am saying they are doing it and it is necessary and appropriate for the Democrats to point out that Jesus also sides with them on some important issues.

If you stopped making up my viewpoint maybe you’d be able to see what I’m actually talking about?

Again, you miss it. They hypocrisy is saying that it is wrong to do but then rewarding the Republicans, repeatedly, for doing so.

I’m not arguing that the Republicans can’t do this, I’m arguing that the Democrats also have issues they can do this with, to win votes. Do you see the difference yet?

[quote]You all have some deep reserves in the colon today from whence you pull these things: what does Bush have to do with this argument?

And again, quit being a hypocrite.
[/quote]

If you listened for once, you’d know that I’m not particularly chastising the Republicans for pointing out issues that they feel Jesus would side with them on.

However, I am suggesting that fair is fair and that Democrats should point out issues that Jesus would side with them on.

As per the purpose of the thread, I’m suggesting ideas for Democrats, which would be helpful if they want to get elected.

P.S. If you haven’t noticed, Bush is a Republican and his strategy is in a way what we are talking about. Is that too big a stretch for you?

70

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
IT IS TIME THAT WE TOOK BACK OUR CONGRESS AND DEMANDED TERM LIMITS.

Boston, are you going to be consistent and chastise Steveo for his use of all caps?

LOL. What are the odds…

I would if I were responding to him, but I’m having more fun arguing with you.

But SteveO knows that Jesus hates ALL CAPS.[/quote]

VROOM HATES ALL CAPS…VROOM HATES ALL GOD FEARING PEOPLE…VROOM HATES ALL REPUBLICANS…VROOM HATES THE BIBLE…VROOM HATES ME…WHO CARES WHAT VROOM SAYS…

71

[quote]vroom wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Then generally talk about that, and avoid specifically making the arguments I was criticizing.

Fuck off.[/quote]

Another wonderful word from the extensive vocabulary of Vroom. [quote]

I’m not punishing anyone. I’m criticizing you, and I’m criticizing Jerry Fallwell too. When I go to church, I don’t want the preacher trying to tell me about politics – and when I’m arguing politics, I really don’t want you or the Republicans or the Democrats telling me about religion.

So, my point is: don’t be a hypocrite. Don’t do what you’re criticizing.

No, you are once again, big surprise, missing the issue. The issue is that nobody is punishing the Republicans for doign this. In fact, they are being rewarded by getting votes, including your vote.

I am not the one criticizing the Republicans, I am saying they are doing it and it is necessary and appropriate for the Democrats to point out that Jesus also sides with them on some important issues.

If you stopped making up my viewpoint maybe you’d be able to see what I’m actually talking about?

My point, again, is don’t be a hypocrite.

Again, you miss it. They hypocrisy is saying that it is wrong to do but then rewarding the Republicans, repeatedly, for doing so.

I’m not arguing that the Republicans can’t do this, I’m arguing that the Democrats also have issues they can do this with, to win votes. Do you see the difference yet?

You all have some deep reserves in the colon today from whence you pull these things: what does Bush have to do with this argument?

And again, quit being a hypocrite.

If you listened for once, you’d know that I’m not particularly chastising the Republicans for pointing out issues that they feel Jesus would side with them on.

However, I am suggesting that fair is fair and that Democrats should point out issues that Jesus would side with them on.

As per the purpose of the thread, I’m suggesting ideas for Democrats, which would be helpful if they want to get elected.

P.S. If you haven’t noticed, Bush is a Republican and his strategy is in a way what we are talking about. Is that too big a stretch for you?[/quote]

72

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
VROOM HATES ALL CAPS…VROOM HATES ALL GOD FEARING PEOPLE…VROOM HATES ALL REPUBLICANS…VROOM HATES THE BIBLE…VROOM HATES ME…WHO CARES WHAT VROOM SAYS…[/quote]

Can you read? Boston was giving me heck for using all caps to stress a single word.

You are a RETARD!

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Another wonderful word from the extensive vocabulary of Vroom.
[/quote]

Steveo, it may surprise you, but sometimes when people are being assholes they do deserve to be told to fuck off.

So, fuck off.

We are allowed to swear y’know. Perhaps you should try to talk about the issues being discussed. No, never mind, that would require you to read and undestand those issues.

What was I thinking?

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[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Another wonderful word from the extensive vocabulary of Vroom.

Steveo, it may surprise you, but sometimes when people are being assholes they do deserve to be told to fuck off.

So, fuck off.

We are allowed to swear y’know. Perhaps you should try to talk about the issues being discussed. No, never mind, that would require you to read and undestand those issues.

What was I thinking?[/quote]

You obviously wasn’t thinking, because if you were thinking you would realize how many times you interject on threads about things that have nothing to do with the topic.

Again, stop being a hypocrite and a vile-mouthed one at that!

75

[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Another wonderful word from the extensive vocabulary of Vroom.

Steveo, it may surprise you, but sometimes when people are being assholes they do deserve to be told to fuck off.

So, fuck off.[/quote]

So why don’t you take your own advice? [quote]

We are allowed to swear y’know. Perhaps you should try to talk about the issues being discussed. No, never mind, that would require you to read and undestand those issues.

What was I thinking?[/quote]

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
So why don’t you take your own advice?
[/quote]

Why don’t you grow a pair and actually say it?

At the same time, do you think using wordplay to say the same thing is not the same as saying it, where it counts, so to speak?

P.S. If you want to show hypocrisy, you may want to show a stance someone has and then show how they violate their own position. Just throwing the word around because you feel it is powerful doesn’t make a lot of sense.

77

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Republican, Democrat – actually it doesn’t seem to matter much anymore.

We have Bush spending like a liberal, Bush and other Republicans wanting to reward people for breaking and entering our country, and the Democrats just hating Bush but coming up with no ideas, or as with Hillary, playing both sides of the game.
[/quote]

I’m a political conservative who feels the Republican have absolutely lost their fucking minds and abandoned the people, the constitution, basically, everything except themselves and the big business/big religion hands that serve them.

(I’m so far gone from my “conservative” counterparts that I think gay marriage should be a conservative issue – since in my warped mind being conservative means less government, hence the promotion of individual liberty and keeping the govt out of people’s private lives… )

But to the topic at hand – I’ve been listening, listening, listening for anything Dems might have to say. I’d vote for a Dem in a second if I believed they stood for anything. And sadly, they’ve got nothing… nada… zip.

I wish term limits would solve the problem, but I really don’t think they would. Those puppets up there are serving the PACS and not the people. Not sure what the answer is.

78

[quote]futuredave wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Republican, Democrat – actually it doesn’t seem to matter much anymore.

We have Bush spending like a liberal, Bush and other Republicans wanting to reward people for breaking and entering our country, and the Democrats just hating Bush but coming up with no ideas, or as with Hillary, playing both sides of the game.

I’m a political conservative who feels the Republican have absolutely lost their fucking minds and abandoned the people, the constitution, basically, everything except themselves and the big business/big religion hands that serve them.

(I’m so far gone from my “conservative” counterparts that I think gay marriage should be a conservative issue – since in my warped mind being conservative means less government, hence the promotion of individual liberty and keeping the govt out of people’s private lives… )

But to the topic at hand – I’ve been listening, listening, listening for anything Dems might have to say. I’d vote for a Dem in a second if I believed they stood for anything. And sadly, they’ve got nothing… nada… zip.

I wish term limits would solve the problem, but I really don’t think they would. Those puppets up there are serving the PACS and not the people. Not sure what the answer is.

[/quote]

Vote all of them out!