[quote]Sagat wrote:
I’m not talking about sports, let me rephrase what i said: most people here build muscle and lose fat without competition in mind.[/quote]
SO WHAT?!
I have never competed…but if I do, I am damn sure going to thank my training for getting me to the point that I can.
Are you saying that since someone may not compete, they shouldn’t do what has worked for most of the people who were successful who did compete?
Man, you write very fast!
As i said in the start of the discussion, if you wants to be a bodybuilder train like one, i think you are completly right aon training this way and seems like it worked well… my whole point was for SOME strength and muscle, do what you enjoy and fits your goals. I remember a guy who posted pics a while ago called caveman, that guy was big and ripped and also very athletic, he used basically tbt and hiit, maybe he wont be that big for a bodybuilders standards, but he went very far with this kind of training.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
Man, you write very fast![/quote]
You have no clue. My computer isn’t fast enough.
[quote]
As i said in the start of the discussion, if you wants to be a bodybuilder train like one, i think you are completly right aon training this way and seems like it worked well… my whole point was for SOME strength and muscle, do what you enjoy and fits your goals. I remember a guy who posted pics a while ago called caveman, that guy was big and ripped and also very athletic, he used basically tbt and hiit, maybe he wont be that big for a bodybuilders standards, but he went very far with this kind of training.[/quote]
When I talk, I am not talking for people who want to gain “a little muscle”. All of those people could get kicked off the forum right now and it would simply make this a better place.
If that is “a little muscle” then 95% of this forum (myself included) are just skin and bones… 
[quote]Sagat wrote:
If that is “a little muscle” then 95% of this forum (myself included) are just skin and bones… :)[/quote]
You thought it wasn’t?
Seriously, I doubt even 15% of the people here would look like serious weight lifters if passed on the street. There MAY be that many who at least look as if they’ve seen a weight before. The rest would pass for sedentary people…and they are usually the ones the most caught up on “theory”.
realwomensfitness.com/forum/general-fitness-discussion/
abc-of-fitness.com/forum/general-fitness/check-this-out-pro.asp
Have fun. There’s just three “general fitness forums” for those that;
For the rest of us, well we’ll just keep trying to build stupid amounts of useless muscle.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You thought it wasn’t?
Seriously, I doubt even 15% of the people here would look like serious weight lifters if passed on the street. There MAY be that many who at least look as if they’ve seen a weight before. The rest would pass for sedentary people…and they are usually the ones the most caught up on “theory”.[/quote]
So…would you say that TBT is more or less like ‘Communism’? in that it works on paper but not so much in real life. Theoretically if I do this or that I should get results, as opposed to historically and empirically, this IS what has gotten people results?
[quote]redkevin79 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You thought it wasn’t?
Seriously, I doubt even 15% of the people here would look like serious weight lifters if passed on the street. There MAY be that many who at least look as if they’ve seen a weight before. The rest would pass for sedentary people…and they are usually the ones the most caught up on “theory”.
So…would you say that TBT is more or less like ‘Communism’? in that it works on paper but not so much in real life. Theoretically if I do this or that I should get results, as opposed to historically and empirically, this IS what has gotten people results?[/quote]
TBT is more like the Fox News Network. They have a product to sell and reality isn’t really a concern.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
I remember a guy who posted pics a while ago called caveman[/quote]
I hope you realize you’re argument is fundamentally flawed and filled with false assumption and guesswork @ best. Trying to get Caveman to be part of your bandwagon and to use him as a defense is weak. No he was not a TBT diehard … why you would use him as the posterboy for TBT is beyond me. He trained for over 10 years, and studied nutrition, nutrient timing and other factors such as controlling his insulin level.
Not only that he did a cycle once and continued to take prohormones afterwards until early/mid 07. No he is not part of your idealistic TBT crowd. Hiit isn’t reserved for one group of fitness enthusiasts. Weighing at a ripped 200lbs in no way classifies him into your argument. Please use another strategy.
Name dropping on an online bodybuilding forum is like taking a piss in your parents bed while they are fully awake. You can’t fool them into believing you aren’t pissing in their bed! Acting astonished when your rebuffed in an attempt to belittle the receiver in your conversation is poor form.
[quote]redkevin79 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You thought it wasn’t?
Seriously, I doubt even 15% of the people here would look like serious weight lifters if passed on the street. There MAY be that many who at least look as if they’ve seen a weight before. The rest would pass for sedentary people…and they are usually the ones the most caught up on “theory”.
So…would you say that TBT is more or less like ‘Communism’? in that it works on paper but not so much in real life. Theoretically if I do this or that I should get results, as opposed to historically and empirically, this IS what has gotten people results?[/quote]
I personally don’t even think it looks good on paper. TBT may work for the average guy who just wants to go through the movements and get in shape, but I don’t beleive it will work very well for bodybuilding for a couple of reasons. It neglects too many muscles, and it limits the intensity that you can apply to the muscles you do work. If you are really pushing yourself on squats you should barely have enough energy to do a few more leg exercises, much less go all out on your back, chest, shoulders, etc.
I give up:
1-I mentioned i also use splits in my training.
2-I mentioned i think splits are better for BB.
3-I used one example of one guy who achieved what i want to achieve, there are others. I decided to try HST routine after i read about it in the caveman post and it worked for me… who here was talking about of copying what sucessful guys did before you?
4-“Acting astonished when your rebuffed in an attempt to belittle the receiver in your conversation is poor form.” english is not my first language i didnt understand this one.
So i was being flamed because i said that tbt can be useful for some goals, and people should train as they enjoy most… You guys need to understand its not about war, hunger, middle eastern conflict, just working out in the gym.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
I’m not against discussing it, but in all this threads people start to prove their point by "my arms are bigger than yours, splits are the way to go ", “no man splits only works because you use roids” etc…
[/quote]
I’m good on predictions no?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
redkevin79 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You thought it wasn’t?
Seriously, I doubt even 15% of the people here would look like serious weight lifters if passed on the street. There MAY be that many who at least look as if they’ve seen a weight before. The rest would pass for sedentary people…and they are usually the ones the most caught up on “theory”.
.[/quote]
Im starting to realize this more and more. Just look at the training log forum, i see three serious guys on the first two pages. lol
and i thought this would finally be the hardcore site i was looking for…
[quote]Sagat wrote:
So i was being flamed because i said that tbt can be useful for some goals, and people should train as they enjoy most… You guys need to understand its not about war, hunger, middle eastern conflict, just working out in the gym.[/quote]
I understand what you’ve been saying. The issue in this particular forum and this particular thread, however is that most of us believe the bodybuilding forum is about building the body to carry as much muscle mass as possible, with at least SOME eye toward balance and symetry.
I can only speak for myself but I know that I’d like it to stay that way. I believe that we should be discussing the best, most proven methods used to achieve the goal of attaining massive amounts of muscle. Split training is just that, tbt is not. This forum is NOT about building the body to withstsnd a marathon. It is NOT about building the body for rock climbing. It is certainly not about mediocrity.
There are other forums here and indeed other websites for training methods for people not interested in extreme muscle building, this 'aint one of them.
I think what you fail to realize Sagat is that regardless of whether you want to gain 10 lbs of muscle or 100; if your goal is hypertrophy, then you should use the same method to achieve that goal, regardless of exactly how much muscle you’re looking to gain.
People simply have to realize that when it comes to building muscle and losing fat, no group of individuals (sports related or otherwise) can even hold a candle to bodybuilders. They are the epitome of that goal.
So, if people are looking to build muscle and lose fat, then they should look to bodybuilders for advice.
Yes, if your goal is to compete in a sport than you need to train in a way that will maximize your performance in that sport. That may or may not involve a period of training like a bodybuilder to build muscle mass. Of course such an individual will not train like that exclusively, as their sport most likely places additional demands on them which they must train specifically for.
But like has been stated, this is the “BODYBUILDING” forum, so talk of sports related goals are not the context that we are discussing.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I think what you fail to realize Sagat is that regardless of whether you want to gain 10 lbs of muscle or 100; if your goal is hypertrophy, then you should use the same method to achieve that goal, regardless of exactly how much muscle you’re looking to gain.
People simply have to realize that when it comes to building muscle and losing fat, no group of individuals (sports related or otherwise) can even hold a candle to bodybuilders. They are the epitome of that goal.
So, if people are looking to build muscle and lose fat, then they should look to bodybuilders for advice.
Yes, if your goal is to compete in a sport than you need to train in a way that will maximize your performance in that sport. That may or may not involve a period of training like a bodybuilder to build muscle mass. Of course such an individual will not train like that exclusively, as their sport most likely places additional demands on them which they must train specifically for.
But like has been stated, this is the “BODYBUILDING” forum, so talk of sports related goals are not the context that we are discussing.[/quote]
Hey Sentoguy, you gave one of the few polite responses and seems like actually cared about reading the thread before ansewering… I will use myself as example: a went from 65kg to 80kg(leaner), while doing 3-10h a week of cardio(fighting), i know its not any big or impressive, but i could build some muscle while staying athletic(actually getting much more athletic) with some basic tbt work 40-50min 3x a week. Probably i could not get more 15kg training like that(or not), my whole point is for basic gains, basic stuff will do, and this basic stuff is not THAT bad (how much bigger J Grimek would be if he didnt do tbt??).
I never said bodybuilding discussion should include sports training etc… just that in this bodybuilding forum you have more discussions from guys going for 80 to 85kg who also do other activities than someone is alrady a bodybuilder. My example again: if i have a question on buildin muscle i post here, even tough i’m not a bodybuilder i’m “building muscle”…
I will not response this thread anymore cause i´m learning nothing from it, and losing a lot of time.
I hope no one misunderstood me, I am definitely not interested in just getting toned. I would like to look like Frank Zane some day.
I also do not plan on doing TBT the rest of my life. I think periodization works and you need change.
When I started I gained 22 lbs (mostly muscle) using TBT. Then I switched to Bodypart splits for the next 9 years and gained 27 more pounds. I am just trying something which worked in the past, if it doesn’t work this time, I won’t do it again.
I am not a fanatic, I don’t stick with routines that don’t work. But I must say, that after these 4 TB workouts, I am feeling pretty good and I believe that I will make some decent progress. I will keep you guys posted if I achieve mass gains.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
Hey Sentoguy, you gave one of the few polite responses and seems like actually cared about reading the thread before ansewering… I will use myself as example: a went from 65kg to 80kg(leaner), while doing 3-10h a week of cardio(fighting), i know its not any big or impressive, but i could build some muscle while staying athletic(actually getting much more athletic) with some basic tbt work 40-50min 3x a week. Probably i could not get more 15kg training like that(or not), my whole point is for basic gains, basic stuff will do, and this basic stuff is not THAT bad (how much bigger J Grimek would be if he didnt do tbt??).
[/quote]
Well, first I’m not knocking your gains, if they’ve helped you perform better in your chosen sport more power to you. But, your statement about “staying athletic” seems to suggest that you’ve bought into the incorrect notion of bodybuilding/split training hindering athleticism. It doesn’t. And there is a ton of anecdotal evidence to support that it doesn’t.
I’ll use myself as an example. I’ve gone from 130 lbs to 185 lbs (also leaner) and have used just about every type of training that you can imagine (TBT, body part splits, strongman stuff, circuits, etc…). I have greatly improved my athleticism over that time period. I also did a stint of serious MMA training during that time and still play around with kickboxing/grappling from time to time. And I will say that my athleticism has never decreased due to training like a bodybuilder (split routines) during that time.
I’m also not arguing that something like TBT can’t give you some results. What I am suggesting though is that if building muscle is your goal, it might not be the most efficient method to use.
About the old time bodybuilders like Grimek, it’s impossible to say for certain, but IMO they absolutely could have been bigger had they followed different training protocols. They also used to stay relatively the same size year round, which has been pretty much shown inferior to having periods of aggressive gaining and periods of aggressive fat loss when it comes to building muscle.
[quote]
I never said bodybuilding discussion should include sports training etc… just that in this bodybuilding forum you have more discussions from guys going for 80 to 85kg who also do other activities than someone is alrady a bodybuilder. My example again: if i have a question on buildin muscle i post here, even tough i’m not a bodybuilder i’m “building muscle”…
I will not response this thread anymore cause i´m learning nothing from it, and losing a lot of time.[/quote]
You didn’t actually say it, but you implied it by actually citing athletes and “average Joes” as examples of people who TBT might be more effective for.
Once again, if your goal is to improve your performance, do what helps you reach that goal. But, just consider the idea that if building muscle is your goal (even if it’s for a short time period), then you might be better off using some form of split. Just to give one more example, Charles Poliquin (who trains a whole slew of professional athletes) has stated that not a single professional athlete he trains uses a TBT program. Not one! Yet, I doubt you’ll hear many people knocking professional football players for their lack of athleticism.
[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
I hope no one misunderstood me, I am definitely not interested in just getting toned. I would like to look like Frank Zane some day.
I also do not plan on doing TBT the rest of my life. I think periodization works and you need change.
When I started I gained 22 lbs (mostly muscle) using TBT. Then I switched to Bodypart splits for the next 9 years and gained 27 more pounds. I am just trying something which worked in the past, if it doesn’t work this time, I won’t do it again.
I am not a fanatic, I don’t stick with routines that don’t work. But I must say, that after these 4 TB workouts, I am feeling pretty good and I believe that I will make some decent progress. I will keep you guys posted if I achieve mass gains.[/quote]
The only thing I want to say is that from my experience it’s impossible to predict whether or not a program is going to produce results based on 4 workouts. I’ve done programs that felt great, only to produce minimal gains in regards to mass. The only way to know if something actually produces results is in hindsight. Do it for a while and see.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
timmcbride00 wrote:
I hope no one misunderstood me, I am definitely not interested in just getting toned. I would like to look like Frank Zane some day.
I also do not plan on doing TBT the rest of my life. I think periodization works and you need change.
When I started I gained 22 lbs (mostly muscle) using TBT. Then I switched to Bodypart splits for the next 9 years and gained 27 more pounds. I am just trying something which worked in the past, if it doesn’t work this time, I won’t do it again.
I am not a fanatic, I don’t stick with routines that don’t work. But I must say, that after these 4 TB workouts, I am feeling pretty good and I believe that I will make some decent progress. I will keep you guys posted if I achieve mass gains.
The only thing I want to say is that from my experience it’s impossible to predict whether or not a program is going to produce results based on 4 workouts. I’ve done programs that felt great, only to produce minimal gains in regards to mass. The only way to know if something actually produces results is in hindsight. Do it for a while and see. [/quote]
I agree with you about the predictability issue and workouts that feel great not always producing mass. That is why I took measurements and pictures, I want to see if there is measurable results. If there is, I will probably alternate TB with Bodypart splits as long as I continue to improve. If there is no results, I will not continue to use it.