[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
pat wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
pat wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
pat wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Pat wrote:
If you are actually curios though about the history of the evils of atheism in history then here is a link you can peruse at your own leisure (like you would even bother), but it’s here.
http://www.hawaii.edu/...kills/NOTE1.HTM
Interesting link, actually; thanks for posting it. Ironically, it goes a long way towards supporting my argument, and doesn’t really do anything for your argument in support of atheism being the root cause of “the greatest mass murders and atrocities in history”.
Also, perhaps you could name for me these atrocities and mass murders that you claim were carried out under the banner of atheism.
Trying to steer this argument in this direction is a direct avoidance of proving that God does not exist, or that the arguments presented are wrong. It’s irrelevant, a point you seem to miss because you know you have no defense. You know that Dawkins and Hitchens cannot save you. Or you simply don’t know enough about it to make a proper counter claim that has any berring you you introduce the silly notion that theists are immoral. Which is a laugh since morality doesn’t really exist in the world you made up for yourself.
Stay on topic. The morality vs. immorality of atheists compared to theists is a different topic and even there the facts are not on your side. You cannot make things what you want them to be. History says your wrong.
Now, if you think that ^^ link supported your notion that ‘atheism’ wasn’t front in center of these mass murders, then a) you didn’t actually read it, b) have exceedingly poor reading comprehention, or c)
For example, again, irrelevent to the existence of God or the arguments that support it, but indulging you because I am that nice, here is an excerpt of what this paper is about:
[i]" In detail, democide is any actions by government:
(1) designed to kill or cause the death of people
(1.1) because of their religion, race, language, ethnicity, national origin, class, politics, speech, actions construed as opposing the government or wrecking social policy, or by virtue of their relationship to such people;
(1.2) in order to fulfill a quota or requisition system;
(1.3) in furtherance of a system of forced labor or enslavement;
(1.4) by massacre;
(1.5) through imposition of lethal living conditions;
(1.6) by directly targeting noncombatants during a war or violent conflict.
[/i]
In absolutely NO WAY was atheism “front and center” in any of the examples from your link; just isn’t the case. Your link talks only of fanatical leaders, their regimes, and the bloodthirsty pursuit of politics and power. Nobody perpetrated the atrocities you speak of in the name of “not believing in a diety”. LOL
You’re the one who made the claim about atheism, then you claim that it doesn’t matter if these leaders were atheist. ooooookay.
Obviously your reading comprehension sucks. The document states it explicitly.
Again, these atrocities your link is citing, are not being attributed to atheism. Nowhere in that link does it attribute those atrocities to atheism. If I’m wrong, then it should be ridiculously easy to point out where in that link atheism is explicitly the reason. My question to you earlier was about why these whack job evil pricks committed the acts that they did, and what was their goal. They did what they did in the name of politics, ambition, and the pursuit of power. Politics is religion, and religion is politics in that they both seek to place a level of control over the masses.
Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and religion, all have significant similarities. They all promise to right the wrongs, smite the wicked, bring prosperity to those who believe and follow, crush those who refuse, etc; and they all require the blind faith of their followers to follow such evil. Moreover, they not only follow, but eagerly do so with the faith that what they are doing, regardless of how massively evil it is, is somehow the right thing to do. Why would that be? What makes good people commit such evil acts? The answer is FAITH. Faith in a religious leader, or faith in a political leader, same result.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. -Steven Weinberg
First, like you said they are all nuts. Second, denying history to justify your own beliefs is simply dishonest and foolish. You think that Atheism had nothing to do with it? You sir are a flat fool:
I’m glad you see it that way, as that is exactly what the religious have done and continue to do in an attempt to paint this as an atheistic problem. Of course, I certainly understand why they (believers) do this, if it were true, it would be a hard argument against atheism. Once again though, the reality is that they did these things in pursuit of their own political dogma, power, and control of the masses. Just like religion.
Pat wrote:
“The Soviet Union was the first state to have, as an ideological objective, the elimination of religion[1] and its replacement with universal atheism.[2]”
“The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion.”
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html
From your first link:
…Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed…The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful…After Nazi Germany’s attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active.
Your link talks exclusively to my point in that political power/control was the catalyst for what all of these knuckleheads have done. The churches were nothing more than competing political authorities that had to be [at first] eliminated. However, when useful, churches were revived as a means to an end.
Your second link also supports these points about religion as a tool for tyrants such as Stalin.
[/quote]
No it does not as it does state specifically that religion and the religious were targeted.[/quote]
Sure it does, but that does not mean that atheism was the “front and center, driving factor”.
[/quote]
Bullshit. Wishing it weren’t so, is not the same as it not being so.
You have no point, you’ve failed to make one, you just steered the conversation to what you believe is a more defensible point for your weak position. Deluding yourself on facts doesn’t make a point. Not only that, you previously said and repeated this statement wasn’t true anyway. It’s fanatics and nuts of all kinds.
Did you even go to school?
http://www.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/features/war_on_religion
You are just flat a history denier…
You wouldn’t know logic if it kicked you in the balls.
Here’s more on your pal Stalin.
By falsifying and rewriting history? By denying what has been written on in volumes? You know Stalin’s reasoning? He didn’t even trust his kids, but his motivations were clear. Not all his murders were religiously based, but many millions were. You can try to deny it, but your full of shit or really stupid if you do.
I am not incorrect, your own words bare this out. You don’t know shit about it. I don’t care how long you spent in CCD, your pal Stalin was in seminary, and still turned out atheist.
There is no evil in your world remember? It’s all relative. Rereading what you wrote is jumping down the rabbit hole of wishful thinking and fact denying. It’s like your tirib’s mirror image.
Here’s a clue for you, if you have deny reality or make shit up to prove a point, you don’t have one and never did.
Fact, it was and I provided a bunch of examples. It was soviet policy. Go look it up. For once do some fucking research.
Why they occurred is because they were trying to get rid of religion all together by any means possible. That’s what they stated, that’s what history says and anything beyond that is pure speculation without a scintilla of fact. You have YET to present a single fact supporting your magical assertion that this shit didn’t happen. Your living in fantasy land.
So your saying you understand the reasoning behind all of this, beyond the stated facts? Now that’s funny.
Somebody says they did something for a particular reason and all you can comeback with is, “That’s not the reason they did it”…
Deep enough? Wow! just Wow! “Your so stupid, you’re not going beyond the stated facts” Uh, huh. So we have to look deeper because it could not have been a motivation to impose a supposed ‘non-belief’ on a people by force.
You’d first have to prove it’s superstition dumbass… Something you cannot do. You cannot even support your own atheism much less prove any religious belief to be false.
Well, you’ve been mighty entertaining with mystical ‘deeper reasons’ behind atrocities committed for the stated reason of getting rid of religion and religious by any means necessary. If anybody is full of shit here it’s you. Trying to make up fake reasons for the millions murdered because of the imposition of atheism. But no, it’s not a fact because they had ‘deeper reasons’. They didn’t really mean it when they said it, they actually meant other things which apparently only you know, and have NO backup for. ZERO facts. You’re the one engaging in wishful thinking here, not me…
Perhaps you can entertain me with how things magically ‘poof’ into existence for no reason and no cause. 'Cause I’d sure like to know how that works.
