[quote]browndisaster wrote:
not a huge difference between pulldowns and pullups, unless you’re too fat for pullups and loading is an issue
[/quote]
you’d need to be VERY good at pullups to be able to get the same squeeze and control of the reps that you can get with a pulldown
I do pulldowns almost as often as pullups. I really do think the issue is loading. With lower rep ranges on either movement, the forearms/biceps get really involved and it’s harder to get that contraction and squeeze in the lats.
When I do pullups/pulldowns for my lats (usually close neutral grip) I can get a great squeeze as long as I focus the contraction and moving my elbows through that pullover arc motion. I don’t think I’m necessarily a pro at pullups or pulldowns, I just make sure to keep the movement light enough so that my focus is on the lats. I think most of the people complaining of a lack of MMC on either movement would be well served on lowering the load and using straps consistently.
I think we are actually agreeing here. Pullups use too much of a load for most people to really be able to control and squeeze the rep, so pulldowns are used instead.
I don’t know if it’s the same for everyone else, but my back responds better to higher reps than other areas, for example, chest and legs, I generally ramp up to reps in 3-5 range, but back I rarely go below 10, Like others have said on here, as a strength trainer my back gets hit almost every day, on bench day, I do face pulls between every set(15-20) on leg day, deads and squats,
on military day I do pullups between every set(8-12) I do one power day for back, old fasioned T bar row, but I use a 4ft tow strap with hoop stitched in each end, wrapped around the bar behind the plates, it allows me to keep upper body around 45 degrees, pull and spread hands, till my hands tuck up under my lower lats, I ramp up in 10’s till my heaviest set, than as I strip the weight I stand more erect,to stress upper back more than lats,
I love this exercise,it comes after cleans, and before rear latterals, to form my whole back day, this is all I’ve basicly done for past five years, back has never looked better. It pisses me off sometimes, as a PL who still cares what he looks like, I put so much effort into chest,and legs,and train my back as an after thought, it ends up being my best bodypart,same thing with a few friends as well,There must be a lesson there somewhere, good luck OP
I’m sorry, but lat pull downs are completely inferior to pull-ups and chins; any real strength training coach will tell you that. Peak and mean muscle activation is much higher in pull-ups and chins - Inside the Muscles: Best Back and Biceps Exercises
Quit being lazy and do pull ups. Lat pull downs aren’t even the same motion; you are pulling something towards you, rather than pulling yourself towards something. Pull downs don’t even have carry over to pull-up strength… When has a machine cable exercise ever been better than a free weight exercise? This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy?
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
I think we are actually agreeing here. Pullups use too much of a load for most people to really be able to control and squeeze the rep, so pulldowns are used instead.[/quote]
yeah exactly, I think the bodyweight load is arbitrary, which is why I don’t feel bad when I lose to my 130 lb friend in pullup contests, and don’t feel great about myself when I see that Clint Darden (800+ pound puller) has to use bands to assist his pullups.
Pulldowns and rows are done at least 4 times a week for me and they are always done after the main movements.
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
I think we are actually agreeing here. Pullups use too much of a load for most people to really be able to control and squeeze the rep, so pulldowns are used instead.[/quote]
I concur. Pullups are great for getting a solid back workout, but if you really want to blast your lats, controlled, heavy lat pulldowns have been my go to like X said.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]Mike__Madden wrote:
I always over looked the saying “big back big bench” but reading the article posted yesterday " Tips from an 800 pound bencher" or something like that, I realized my back is a weak point on me.[/quote]
I saw that you’re benching around 280.
What’re you using on the barbell rows, pulldowns, deadlifts, and cleans?[/quote]
for bb rows I do about 165 for 4x6 and 145 for 3x10 but I can’t do those anymore because I was diagnosed with a herniated disc yesterday. I’ll have to use machines for the big back now. Will sitting cable rows, lat pull downs, and HS rows do it? 2 of those on monday and 1 on friday?
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
I’m sorry, but lat pull downs are completely inferior to pull-ups and chins; any real strength training coach will tell you that. Peak and mean muscle activation is much higher in pull-ups and chins - Inside the Muscles: Best Back and Biceps Exercises
Quit being lazy and do pull ups. Lat pull downs aren’t even the same motion; you are pulling something towards you, rather than pulling yourself towards something. Pull downs don’t even have carry over to pull-up strength… When has a machine cable exercise ever been better than a free weight exercise? This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy?
[/quote]
This MVC stuff is interesting, and yeah we are in the PL forum, but i dont think we can ignore just bow many big BBers prefer pulldowns to chins. What some folks are saying is having a big back as well as a strong back is useful in PL, and i would agree with that.
That said if i was only allowed to do 4 movements it would be the big three and chins.
pullups and pulldowns are two completely different exercises, I train for strength, and I can’t remember the last time I did a pull down, but if I were a BB I would do both. The pulldown allows BB’s to target certain areas, but from a strength point the negative is lighter than the positive, so you still need the pullup. They are both quality exercises, depending on goals Mike it seems pro x built a big back, with the machines you listed
Since I power lift and am injured, what back exercises are best for me? In terms of back size and strength
My back is growing like hell with low volume and high intensity, dorian yates style. 5 exercises, 1 set each to total and complete failure.
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy? [/quote]
Because at some point that size is going to give you a better base from which to move bigger weights from. It ain’t rocket science. Size absolutely matters in this case.
Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger. Rows (bent over and Pendlay style) have done much more for my back than pull ups did. But ymmv.
james
[quote]Mike__Madden wrote:
Since I power lift and am injured, what back exercises are best for me? In terms of back size and strength[/quote]
Pulldowns with a variety of grips, chins with a variety of grips, HS Rows, Chest Supported Rows, DB Rows, BB Rows while laying on an Incline Bench. Thats a few to start with. Get your back healed up and start doing heavy BB Rows
If you are deadlifting and doing variants of it, that is a start.
I personally love high volume in my direct back training. 50 reps minimum.
I generally stick do db rows, pullups, bb rows, and lat pulldown.
As was said, CONTROL the weight. If you are doing seated rows or lat pulldowns, you have a much better setup for holding the contraction at the bottom and FEELING the back work.
focusing on the MMC in lat pulldowns transferred over to me feeling my back work much better in rows, deads, and bench.
Plus why skip or minimize back training? Its MY favorite to train and a big and thick back makes one look beastly.
whats the injury, ya missed the post with the disk problem. Anyway, seated HS row is great but any chest suported row, as well as pulldowns, and face pulls,will build big back,I like ramping upin 10’s for back, till I get to a point I cant get 10,than I do a couple sets as I unload, getting more reps,sort of pyrmid, ends up being 5-7 sets( fist coule are easy)
135x10
225x10
250x10
275x8.5(hard)
250x16 (hard)
225x21(killer)
I only train back this way, it takes alot out of me, four exercises tops, my back likes the reps
[quote]Mike__Madden wrote:
I always over looked the saying “big back big bench” but reading the article posted yesterday " Tips from an 800 pound bencher" or something like that, I realized my back is a weak point on me. On monday’s I do barbell rows and friday I do lat pull down and sitting cable rows. Are they good ones to get a huge strong back? If not let me know some exercises and a ball park range of sets/reps.[/quote]
Yes they’re good. Also curls.
I would start off heavy for a few weeks as my biceps limit the amount of reps I can get, I find this happens for most people. I Like to mix up explosive a little sloppy, with perfect technique either way aim for a range of 3-6 reps with more sets to make up for any lack of volume.
To keep it simple use somebodies program like Yates or something. Look up his back routine and try it for 8 weeks.
Curls don’t build your back but they build the tools you use to do back exercises which helps more then you would think. Just like extremely strong triceps can do wonders for a bench.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but when I use Fat Gripz for weighted pullups, it forces me to use a much slower tempo which then makes me focus on contracting my lats harder. I like them much better than regular pullups with those wimpy little 1" bars. For me, lat pulldowns seem to utilize the lower traps for scapular depression whereas for pullups it seems that my lats take over more for that role. Could just be me, though.
[quote]kgildner wrote:
No love for weighted pull-ups here? They remain my favourite lat burner.[/quote]
word probably the only lift that really hits the lats for me.