You definitely don’t get the core work and stability work using machines like you do with traditional squats and dead’s. That’s for sure! I feel like I get legs pretty good between leg press, hack squat, extensions, and curls. My favorite is weighted walking lunges though. 135lbs on an ez curl bar and go 25 on each leg. Brutal
I love (/hate) walking lunges. I fully expect them to feature a lot when I get back from holiday.
I just can’t quite make my peace with “bodybuilder” style training. It’s purely a mental thing, and I’m slowly moving towards it.
1 Like
What specifically turns you off to “bodybuilder style workouts?” I’m quite the opposite. All the strength based workouts seem so over complicated, and for me going up towards a one rep max seems like an open invitation to injury. I feel like I’m still building plenty of strength as well.
I simply see strength gains in my given rep range. For example when I started a year and a half ago I would do sets of 12-15 with 55 lb dumbbells for chest press and now I can do 12-15 with 100 lb dumbbells, but I sure wouldn’t want to grab 150’s and try to crank out 2-3 reps. I’d hurt myself for sure.
Just curious as to what appeals to you and why does not…
Let me say first of all that I’m in no doubt they’re effective, simply that I don’t enjoy them and I find the mindset hard to get into.
I find it hard to put my finger on what exactly I dislike about them. I think the biggest factor is that I like to see progress and that factors into a few things.
- I keep the core exercises constant and limited because I can see progress there.
- I like progression plans to be laid out in advance, because that’s another way for me to see progress (or potential progress).
- I measure progress in many ways by weight moved, while bearing in mind factors other than strength that will affect that.
But also, honestly, I just don’t like isolation exercises. I find it incredibly difficult to get my head into the right headspace to really concentrate on getting the most out of a set of curls. I find a set of pull ups far easier to focus on.
Edit:
Also, I’m still weak as shit, and I have to acknowledge that isolation movements aren’t really a priority for me by now.
2 Likes
Everyone has their own approach to training but bodybuilding still has weight progression - it’s just with higher reps.
I’m doing a pyramid rep scheme on the bigger movements. 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 followed by a higher rep pump set. The final set is for max reps. If I get 4 then I’ll increase the weight.
The tricky part is that every set is taken within 1 or 2 reps of failure. So if I’m using DBs and hit 4 reps on my final set then every set will have to be with 10 more pounds next time. I sometimes find that the increased weight really hits me hard on the first few sets and have a negative impact on the “money” set.
It doesn’t really matter though because the goal is fatigue.
I could argue that some of a strength program is mindless. 5x5 with 70% for backoff sets isn’t all that difficult and none of the sets get close to failure. It’s volume for the sake of volume.
Do three sets to failure instead of those backoff sets and you’d be a bodybuilder.
Here’s your bench sets:
Bench: worked up to 72.5kg x 10.
60kg 5 x 5
I did the Wendler math and your backoff sets were done with 62% of your e1RM (based on 72.5 for 10 reps).
What goal does 5x5 @ 62% satisfy?
I’m not questioning your training; just making sure you know why you’re doing what you’re doing.
1 Like
It’s cool, I’m not big or strong enough to get much of an ego about this stuff or get too bent out of shape when people challenge it.
In this case it is literally volume for the sake of volume. Appeal to authority, Jim Wendler says it will get me stronger so it will. I have previously used AMRAP FSL back offs but stopped because at that point I was always hitting 15+ on PR sets anyway and my form was getting sloppier and sloppier to the point where the majority of my reps were done with bad form. I may rethink a way to get more volume in without form slipping, because that seems likely to be the answer for hitting my ambitious goals by year end. Potentially clusters as an assistance protocol?
1 Like
CT likes those and I’ve tried them, but that was it - just a trial. Volume for the sake of volume works but I think the percentages matter. CT said in a video that strength gains come from doing volume work in the 80-87% range.
I had great luck with his Simple Guaranteed Strength and Size program and it had a lot of volume in that range.
The problem with 5/3/1 is the constant drive to set PRs. That’s not training. That’s testing. When I ran it I found myself figuring the e1RM every session and trying to beat last week’s number. That’s dumb. You grind and sacrifice form (at least I did).
Taking a set to failure with a bodybuilding mindset is different. I’m thinking about the muscle that I want to train. I feel it burning and failing so I stop the set. I control tempos better too. I could probably bust out one or two more reps by speeding up and using the stretch reflex but that doesn’t reach my goal.
1 Like
I’ve tried this and found exactly the same thing you did. This is why I’m liking 5s PRO with squats because it allows me to keep form pretty tight and keep the intensity waved.
2 Likes
In a previous lifting life I’ve had a reasonable amount of success with these for deadlifting on many occasions. 5/3/1, with clusters and ROM progression were pretty much the only tools I used to hit a 5 plate pull. While that’s not impressive by any standards, it was still one of the proudest moments of my life and way, way out of line with my other lifts.
I remember also using clusters with bench with a little success, so I guess there’s No harm in trying again.
2 Likes
Likely last chance for a proper session before holiday next week so beyond my basic 531 sets, all intelligent programming went out the window.
Bench: worked up to 77.5kg x 6 then lots of drop sets. 20 Band pull aparts between work sets.
Cable chest flies: some
Close grip lat pull down: some
Seated press: lots of drop sets
Rear delt swings: 3 x 35 at 6kg(?)
Squat: worked up to 100kg x 5
TBDL: 3 x 20 @120kg
Notes:
- Really disappointed with bench, bit looking back at notes I think I had a very good day doing 75kg x 10 a few weeks ago, rather than the subsequent sessions being bad.
- Not a fan of drop sets for bench. I feel a better pump doing BBB sets.
- I am a big fan of Seated press. This will be staying for sure.
- I am also a fan of band pull aparts between all working bench sets. Helps me feel a lot more stable.
- Squat felt pretty good up until the last set, which was definitely moving into squat morning territory. A better assistance plan is needed.
- High rep TBDL still suck.
I think once I return I need to knuckle down and do the things I know work for me:
Bench: plus sets and BBB once a week
Squat: 5s PRO with paused FSL work and some well thought out assistance.
Press: no clue, time to try something new.
3 Likes
So a tentative plan for when I return from holiday, assuming work or family commitments don’t cut into training time. I reckon I can get a good 2/3 sessions a week, plus maybe a few half sessions.
Day 1:
Bench: 5/3/1, plus sets and BBB
Rows: 5 x 10
Squat: 5 x 10
Day 2:
Seated press: 8/6/3, plus sets and 5 x FSL
Squat 5/3/1 5s PRO, 3 sets of paused FSL
Walking lunges 5 x 10
Extra curricular: abs, cardio, any isolation I feel like.
Notes:
Band pull aparts between all pushing sets
Pull ups between squat sets
Take a step back in TM for squats. 100kg was a struggle so I need to give the assistance time to work
Bench TM continue to progress.
4 Likes
That looks pretty good to me for your set up. I like the 8/6/3 for OHP. I think going with higher reps is a good choice there.
I’m hoping so, yeah. I’ve never really found an approach that gets my strict press moving. I can kid myself it’s moving by getting better at leg drive, but my strict press has never gone above a measly 60kg, even when I could bench 110kg for reps.
1 Like
I’ve only had success at improving my overhead presses (push press and strict OHP) but making it a priority. I used a twice a week approach and followed a strict progression. I think I improved my push press with CT’s Complete Power Look program and my strict OHP improved a bit with CT’s Simple Guaranteed Strength & Size program. Both followed strict progressions.
I think I improved my overhead strength on my own with seated Smith OHP. It allowed me to do a pyramid loading scheme (adding weight, decreasing reps each set). I could hit failure, rack it, and then do rest pause reps without any issues.
Looks fine to me.
Cheers for the input @Frank_C @MarkKO. I think I know what I’m doing with basic programming, however the slow progress makes me second guess myself.
1 Like
Slow progress is better than no progress. I’m fairly certain my entire weight room life has just been ups and downs. I’m currently weaker and possibly smaller than I was 15 years ago. I don’t understand it. I haven’t taken any long breaks from the gym. I guess by chasing strength and then physique I’ve achieved neither. I have respectable results but like I said, I was here a long time ago. I thought I’d be better by now.
1 Like
In my honest opinion, you’ve achieved a decent level of both. I think you underestimate how much progress you’ve made, and also underestimate the impact injuries and regular focus switches have had on your progress.
For me, I’m very aware I’ve been here before. And much stronger, fitter and leaner than I am now. But as the log title suggests, I walked 10 miles into the woods, I have to walk 10 miles out and hope my previous knowledge helps me take a few shortcuts. I also have to be aware that last time I was basically a free agent. I could train daily, sleep all night and eat whatever and whenever I want. I no longer have any of those luxuries. Those aren’t excuses for being fat and weak but they are a reality.
2 Likes
I appreciate the kind words. I struggle to see positive changes in myself (body dysmorphia, anyone?). I’d have to say the injuries are really what has guided my training. I’m not always officially injured, but biceps tendonitis in the shoulder shuts down my barbell bench press in a hurry and it happens about every year. A back injury in 2014 changed my squat and deadlift training - or stopped it. I was just actually getting those two lifts going at the time.
And for the past couple years, Lee Boyce’s voice of reason for average Joe’s has caught my attention. It’s not so much a matter of if I can do something; it’s a matter of if I should. And most of the time the answer is no.
That’s definitely something that most people don’t realize - especially since a lot of us started this journey young. I’ve been fortunate enough to stick with my training year in and year out. I don’t know if it’s been out of simple stubbornness or if it’s because I married a fit woman who also likes to train regularly. She’s a runner and I’m a lifter but she understands that I need to the gym just like she needs running. It’s very therapeutic for our minds. Now there’s a chance that I’ve given too much real estate in my brain to this stuff but I’ll save that topic for another day.
I don’t envy the people who started out young and had success but then left the gym for several years as their adult life took shape. I already beat myself up for not being as good as I once was. I can’t imagine the hard comparisons people are making when they come back from a multi year hiatus. We all know what we used to feel like in the gym and it’s really tough to go train when the performance is drastically different than the expectation.
I wasn’t going to mention it, but yeah.
This is something I didn’t even understand myself to be honest. It wasn’t until I started training again that I realised how much it helps me. The biggest part of training for me is to have something that’s just mine, and that’s extremely precious these days.
There’s good and bad bits to it. I’m used to being weak. I topped out at 145/120/225kg on the powerlifts at a fairly unimpressive ~85kg. And I was proud of my progress, but I was never under any illusions of being any great shakes at this. The difference is now I know that it can be done, by me, so its just a case of implementing a reasonable plan. I just need to use that to actually focus and stick to the plans.
2 Likes