I guess that'd be funny...if I was Croation.
The only thing there that I understood and enjoyed was the Croatian hatred of Serbs.
I'm Croatian, I live in a town by the sea named Rijeka. ('Pozdrav svima.')
There are too many Croatian words in the article, so I doubt that a non Croatian speaking reader can understand it.
I couldn't help noticing that due to a variety of socio-cultural reasons, we Croatians suffer from a delusion that someone in the world actually gives a fuck about us.
95 % of people couldn't pinpoint us on the world map.
The remaining 5 % could, but they just don't fucking care.
So get over it.
To be quite honest I don't know shit about Croatia, other than the fact that Mirko CroCop is a badass, could kick my head off, and is a member of Croatian parliament. Nothing against Croatia, my ignorance extends across most of that small region of Europe. I'll have to read up on it later, I enjoy cultural geography.
Yea, there was nothing in there about Crocop, the only part of Croatia I care about.
I've been to croatia. But then again I am European. Me and my dad drove through from Little England; across the channel through France, germany, switzerland, italy slovenia; until we made it to Croatia. We stopped in Rijeka overnight aswell, except i don't remember it too well, the only thing I do remember is that it had a supermarket which sold no tomatoes or onions, spaghetti bolognese was off the menu. We were working our way down the adriatic coast eventually to Greece; before looping back. We spent about a week of the 6week journey in Croatia; mostly around Dubrovnik and Zadar.
?when Germans soldiers come by you throw flowers at them and call them liberators.
You mean the nazi soldiers?
I don't think so!
Were there any decent Croatian bodybuilders?, caveman here on T-Nation is part croatian.
What sort of comment is that? So your calling all croatians Nazis? Prick
Every now and then there's an idiot who laughs at the misfortunes of others.
Actually, if you'd care to look at the facts, the vast majority of German-occupied countries in WW2 had a pro-fascist movement (Quisling in Norway and Degrelle in Belgium for example, not to mention France).
Most of those movements were originated from prewar far-right groups and enjoyed varying levels of popular support. Croatia was no expection. All the movements supplied volunteers to the Wehrmacht - for instance, many of the defenders of Hitler's bunker in May '45 were French SS.
However, despite the fact that we participated in the most succesful anti-fascist uprising in Europe during WW2, we are the only country constantly labeled as "pro-nazi" by freaks such as yourself.
For example, I never heard anyone accused the Latvians for being "Nazis", although the Latvian SS units actively participated in the Holocaust.
I believe that it is pretty obvious that your stupid comment is not based on any fact and that you've got some serious issues.
I guess it?s tough to face the truth about your own people. I have a masters in eastern European history and Slavic languages. I traveled to Croatia years ago and it?s beautiful country, but you cannot deny that there were some horrible things that happened there during the WWII. I?ve seen archival footage of people in Zagreb and Ljubljana (Slovenia) cheering and throwing flowers to German soldiers as they were marching, I?ve read correspondence between the SS commanding officers and Berlin and they -SS in Croatia- were complaining how barbaric Ustashe were, SS was afraid that their overzealous ?treatment- of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies etc was driving a lot of them to Tito?s Partisans. I?ve seen photos of bodies from (concentration camp) Jasenovac thrown in to Danube so they can float all the way to Belgrade; I?ve read transcripts of internal documents from Jasenovac telling guards that no one is to be kept alive past three months etc.
Tito?s partisans at one point in 1943 actually signed a truce with the Germans. Wehrmacht command thought to be a good idea so they can free up a division and move it to another front but when Hitler found out he flipped out and nixed a deal. I?m sure Communists never mentioned that as well as that they massacred about 10000 people who wanted to leave the country after the war was over, mostly former army officers and business people who were afraid to stay and live under the communist regime. I realize that in your own country those documents are probably not studied or talked about, everyone has skeletons in their national closet.
I?m not going to get into all the stuff that US did/does ?Allende, Lumumba etc
Quisling and Degrelle were amateurs in comparison.
Latvia was pretty bad but that?s another topic, this tread was about Croatia.
In addition Tudjman certainly did not help much to change the image of Croatia by denying the existence of holocaust in one of his books, and when President Clinton invited him in 1996 to the opening of the Holocaust Museum In DC it caused a big scandal.
I'm not denying it. On the contrary, I'm trying out to point out that the same things happened in almost all other European countries occupied by the Germans.
Before the German invasion Ustashe were a group of exiled right-wing extremists starving in Italy and numbering in dozens.
If we even ignore the fact they were a fringe of the population, what makes Croatians so special about it? Whole villages awaited Germans open-armed in Ukraine for example. In both cases, A repressed minority was self-deluded into believing that Germans would be better that their current opressors.
Unfortunately, this particular film produced by nazi-propaganda was fourty years later again put to sinister use by certain elements to prove that we are inherently a "genocidal" nation.
Again, no one is denying the killings made by Ustashe, Black Legion formations etc.
However, it is very interesting that Croatia is the only European country that is being accused of being "pro-Nazi" fifty years later.
For example, the Vichy regime in France rounded up their Jews without even being asked to do that by the Germans. Not to mention the Milice terror in the later war years.
Unfortunately, very few people study regional WW2 history objectively. It is not uncommon for them to have a political agenda, intend on showing us villanous murderers. Croatia's behaviour in WW2 was not especially different from other countries. You had a pro-fascist puppet regime and Soviet-backed guerrillas (who were extremely succesful).
However,I have a problem when crimes committed during WW2 in Croatia by the Croats are applied to the whole country and the whole nation, somehow making us "the worst of the worst".
Ahem, where is your reference to this? Tito's uprising tied down more German divisions than the much glorified Maquis.
I believe I have more insight into the crimes commited in my country by the fascists and later by the communists.
From reading your post one would get an impression that whether fascist or anti-fascist, Croats were "prone to genocide".
Like I said, it is very interesting that when Croatia is mentioned is whatever context someone will bring out the "pro-nazi" accusations and "flowers trown onto panzers" thing. Most people bringing up Croatia's WW2 history are doing this for political reasons.
If instead of "Croatia" in this thread there was for example the word "Latvia" or "Estonia", would you post a message completely unrelated to the initial one: "you killed the Jews in Riga ghetto", "you greeted Germans as liberators" ?
Which book would that be? I'n no fan of his but this accusation is ridiculous.
It's so interesting how you see only one side of the coin. Why aren't you mentioning the Italyan concentration camps in Istria and Kvarner?
And about that flower throwing issue, do I need to mention the Kingdom of SHS?
What did you expect when you stated a tread -You?re Croatian when?- ?
If you had one with You?re French when? I could have wrote ? you start waving a white flag out of habit etc ?you can write a post like that and ?offend- any nation/nationality but I see I have struck a big nerve here.
I?m also not too happy that people are putting words in my mouth -alstan90-
I have never called an entire nation anything negative or positive, that?s just ridiculous on so many levels.
Eclectic, I do not even know what you mean by your statement?
As far as the logic of -We are not the only one that?
Would you argue in court that Robert Blake should be found innocent because OJ got off and he killed two people? that?s just a bad argument and illogical deffense Loppar.
Now if you would like to discuss other -Butchers of the Balkans- such as Milosevic etc we can start another thread. Both Serb and Croat extremists have performed horrendous acts on their own people. To be fair, both sides have also had many strong character leaders attempt to end the violence. Many of which paid with their lives.
As far as Tudjman and his anti Semitic views here some quotes from his book
Wastelands-Historical Truth published in 1989
?That the estimated loss of up to 6 million dead is founded too much on both emotional biased testimonies and on exaggerated data in the post-war reckonings of ar crimes and squaring of accounts with the defeated perpetrators of war crimes?.- page 156
In the mid-Eighties, world Jewry still has the need to recall its "holocaust " even by trying to prevent the election of the former UN Secretary General Kurt Waldheim as President of Austria!
And some articles from various sources
One interesting article can be found here;
And another one here;
-Tudjman was a nationalist, a racist and anti-Semite. As president and army commander-in-chief he was personally responsible for driving 400,000 Serbs out of Croatia. The country, which originally had a Serbian population of 12 percent, is today almost "Serb-free-.
From an article by
By Justus Leicht and Peter Schwarz
16 December 1999
Tudjman on the Holocaust: "With regard to Jews, I'm inclined to agree with those scholars in the world who say that the figure of six million is exaggerated" [The New Republic, Jan. 20, 1992, p. 5].
And another From NY Times
April 22, 1993
Anger Greets Croatian's Invitation To Holocaust Museum Dedication
By DIANA JEAN SCHEMO,
As world leaders gathered for the opening of the Holocaust Memorial Museum here, Holocaust historians and survivors today condemned an invitation to the President of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman, who has been accused of writing that estimates of six million Jewish dead were inflated and that Jews were among those running a Croatian concentration camp. Mr. Tudjman, (pronounced TOODGE-mahn), in a 1988 book "Wastelands: Historical Truth," estimated that 900,000 Jews, instead of six million, died in the Holocaust, said Simon Wiesenthal, the renowned Nazi hunter. Elie Wiesel, the Nobel laureate, has also attacked the Croatian President for asserting that the number of dead in the Holocaust had been exaggerated.
As far as why anyone with some knowledge of WWII looks at Croatia they way they do is not just because Pavelic regime was collaborating with the Nazis but how they did it. Infamous Max Luburic, the commander of Jasenovac camp, openly boasted that they 'killed more Serbs in this camp for 4 years, than Turks did for 500 in whole of Serbia. Cardinal Stepinac and Croatian Furher Pavelic, made an infamous plan where ' one third of Serbs in Croatia had to be converted to Catholicism, one third had to be forcibly expelled and one third had to be exterminated'! There are letters between Cardinal Stepinac and Vatican (including Pope) from which you can see that this plan actually originated in Vatican itself. German generals were 'astonished by Croatian barbarism' in dealing with Serbs (Jews were massively killed in German Concentration camps, but where never exposed to the level of torture as Serbs were in Jasenovac!
And if you can not believe that Vatican is not so much involved in Croatian affairs even today -please check this: http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/20/wponte20.xml
(Vatican accused of shielding Croatian war criminal)
Pope actually beatified Cardinal Stepinac in 1998
Since I usually get paid for history lessons you can do the rest yourself. Start by reading these books.
Gudescu & Prcela
Serbia?s Hidden War
Phillip J Cohen
Yugoslavia ? Death of a Nation
Silber and Little
Tito-The Rise and Fall of Yugoslavia
The Balkan Tragedy
The National question in Yugoslavia
Avro Manhattan (of radio free Europe fame)
The Yugoslav Auschwitz
That's just the start.
Best wishes to all of you.
That was suppose to read as
Best wishes to you all.
Anyway I think the original poster had a serious point that he wanted us to get to the bottom of. Now let me see.
You are croation when you are born at: 45' 10'N, 15' 30'E