T Nation

Your Views on the Trump-Russia Connection?


#1

Since the “Russia Won’t Go Away” thread was getting fairly long, and starting to inevitably go in other directions (as long threads often do); I thought it would be good to get at you guys Personal Views of what the Trump-Russian connection is…or even if you feel there is one.

As more events unfold; this is my overview of what transpired (in general terms):

1) Trump and his people…especially Bannon; had one overriding Goal; win the Presidency at any cost and by any means possible.

If it meant offending and shaking up people; attacking and discrediting “the media” or the Washington establishment; and anyone else who stood in the way of their Goals…so be it. The more dirt they can dig up on anyone; especially Clinton…the better.

The Presidency would also be the largest Platform from which to spread Bannon’s Worldview…with the “Populist Nation-Sate of America” being central to that ideology.

2) Putin had two objectives:

a) Get Clinton defeated, and

b) Disrupt American Computer Networks in ways that get at the very core of American Democracy; including, but not limited to, the Election System.

Do it via a carefully timed and coordinated series of computer attacks; leaks of sensitive information, (especially that which could harm Clinton and the Democratic Party); and flood all forms of digital platforms with fake news and misinformation, (especially if damaging to Clinton, who was already weak and vulnerable on so many fronts).

Spare nothing from the “KGB-playbook”.

Putin also saw a blowhard and a group of vulnerable rank amateurs (both politically and financially) in Trump and his inner circle whom could easily be manipulated in ways that could be useful to his Goals…and he could do it in ways that they wouldn’t even recognize as manipulation.

While it would be useful long-term to have Trump in the White house…him being and staying President simply was not; and mostly still is not; a primary objective of Putin’s.

Clinton was defeated; and America is more divided than ever…

“Loyalty to the party - Loyalty to motherland…”

…and it’s all in the KGB-Playbook…played by the Master himself…

Your thoughts?


#2

Trump won because Hillary was phenomenally bad. End of. There still isn’t a single shred of evidence for a proper connection.


#3

I don’t know about anyone else…but I am neither denying that nor downplaying it as “a” factor…perhaps “the” factor… in this past election. Nor am I denying that Trump defeated her. (While also crushing some experienced Politicians in the GOP Primary).

However…it is far from being the only factor.

Also…the only “connection” between Putin and Trump that I made were common Goals.

While this may change…the goals the two had overlapped. That is not in dispute.

You can deny Russian involvement if that’s your choice.

I’m looking for input from all sides.


#4

There seems to be a shocking lack of evidence and plenty of innuendo presented to support these stories. I have no doubt that Russia intervened, but they have been doing this for decades. It goes at least back to their infiltrating the anti-nuke movements in Europe during the Cold War. An actual conspiracy with Trump is an entirely different matter. The fact that the Democrats may be using this as what is more and more looking like a smoke screen scares the ever loving hell out of me because there is no good that can come out of this. Either Trump is guilty or the Democrats are attempting a coup. There really isn’t much in the way of middle ground here and it needs to be taken very seriously (both ways). I’ve been saying this all along, but that level of accusation needs hard evidence. One shouldn’t even approach this without such evidence and now with the leader of the firm that presented the “Russian dossier” taking the 5th it’s starting to look more and more like an attempted coup/conspiracy by the Democrats.

It’s frankly akin to the silly Clinton sucides/murders stories, only far worse, but this is all simply an example of how low U.S. politics have sunk. I will say that what gets lost in all of this are (1) the Comey decision to usurp the Justice Department regarding Clinton’s emails along with the mystery behind the meeting on the tarmac betwen Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch, (2) the unmasking of citizens by the Obama administration, and (3) the targeting of conservatives by the IRS under the Obama administration. The Democrats and Trump both seem hell bent on winning at all costs, and I’m having a hard time balancing my views of them. I’m a life long moderate/non-religious Republican that went Independent over Trump (and was frankly suprised he won), but have slowly come over because the level of conspiracy theory/resistance/women wearing pussies on their heads/Antifa/Oh my god he’s actually Hitler level of crazy being displayed in reaction to him. I’m not excited about the choices here.

Trump is a natural result of the continued lowering of the level of discourse in this country. He’s far more a symptom than a cause, and no he’s not stupid. He’s playing the populist card like a fiddle and instead of really taking the high road in response, the Democrats basically lost their shit. None of it is particularly pretty.

Long story short? I’m gemuinely concerned about the future of this country and the “truth” probably will never come out. Too many powerful vested interests.


#5

Agree.

(I’m not following the “Democratic Coup” reasoning; but I do agree with some of your other points, SB).


#6

God damnit, Mufasa. You take all the fun out of this.


#7

LOL!

Sorry, SB!

I really am trying to wrap my head around all that is happening…and one way of doing that is getting the view of others, and how they see it.

Some, I reject completely. (e.g. NO Russian involvement; too much emphasis on “What-about”-ism; over-utilization of Double-Standards, too much “Fan-Boy” bullshit, etc.).

In most cases, I honestly want to hear other people thoughts.


#8

Russia is a great country. Can someone explain why the Democrats started attacking Putin in the first place?


#9

Can you clarify your question a little more?


#10

Since I post mostly on the Russia thread, this will not be a shock to anyone, but I think Trump’s been washing Russian money through his real estate and casinos for decades. I have no illusions that he masterminded some grand scheme to steal the election, but believe he was a “useful idiot”.

Mueller has a top team in place and will get to the bottom of it and hopefully, if something is found, there will be evidence that the public can see. But the thought of this being some massive coup is absurd. That would mean some of the top attorneys and intelligence people in the country are putting their entire careers, and in some cases lives, on the line in the name of politics.


#11

I think a lot of it depends on what we are talking about. It seems almost impossible to conclude that some shady things have happened between Russia and Trump’s inner circle. You have Flynn going down. You have Pence lying about things (or is not remembering the preferred term to lying). You have the meeting with Jr. You have the latest issue with Sessions. What it all means is trickier. Trump has shady dealings with Russia financially? Extremely likely. He has been very protective of his finances (we will never see his tax returns) and other examples.

Did Russia have success in influencing the election and if so did Team Trump help them? Much more difficult question to answer. Bot tweets or fake news from Russia isn’t evidence. I think it is highly unlikely that Trump himself had a coordinated effort with Russia to win and I have said that all along.

Long story short a connection between Trump and Russia is almost undeniable at this point. What that connection tells us is a whole different story and what happens at the end is just guessing by anyone.

Of course like Trump is showing the thing we need to be talking about is “What about Clinton?”

We don’t have direct evidence that Trump cheated on us but for some reason Trump and all his friends smell like Russian perfume.


#12

My opinion is that Manafort and Flynn were deeply involved in coordinating efforts with the Russians during the campaign. They were probably sounding out Sessions to see whether he’s on board. I’m not sure about Jared and Donald Jr., they were probably too dumb to comprehend what they were doing.

I think Trump Sr. was given a very sanitized version of these dealings, as not to implicate him, hence his childish excitement over Wikileaks.

“Donald, these nice people think that Hillary would be the worst president ever and are concerned that she would start WW3. On an unrelated note, I think it’s unfair that failing Obama introduced some pointless and trivial sanctions the Russians themselves don’t even care about. Let’s get that out of the way and talk to them to get the best possible deal for America”

As far as Trump’s business dealings go, he was probably deeply involved in money laundering for certain interest groups.


#13

yea not a shred… :confused:
Ive been nice but unless huff glue its ez to see… Ruskies offered to help Trump win in return for reducing sanctions if he wins… I agree it didnt help much but they made a deal
Also theres a Pee Tape which we will all get to enjoy once Putins patience runs out


#14

Its a cyber attack dont fall for it… Yea your right nothing to see here please leave my Porn hub account alone… Nostrovya


#15

Yep…“Plausible Deniability” is a term that goes back a ways.

Manafort and Flynn certainly were smart enough and experienced enough to understand this.

Kuschner and Jr.? Naive, inexperienced players that Putin probably jokes about.


#16


#17

At this point, I think:

  1. Russia actually didn’t care a whole lot who won, they wanted mayhem first and foremost and wanted to compromise both candidates, whoever they were.

  2. When Trump gained momentum and ultimately became the nominee - the Russians quickly figured out from previous dealings with Trump that he is an easily manipulable idiot. The Russians couldn’t believe their luck. They had dirt on the dirty Clinton, and now this guy falls into their lap.

  3. Russia built a trap for him and his team. Trump had compromised pro-Russia members of his team, and whether directly or indirectly, they set Trump up by offering to deal on Clinton.

  4. Because Trump and his team are bumbling amateurs who did want dirt on Clinton, they fell into the trap, and once in, starting involving every surrogate of the team (see recent news on Jeff Sessions).

  5. I don’t think Russia actually wanted to collude in a meaningful way (they were going to release the dirt on Hillary regardless), they merely wanted to get Trump and his team into trying to collude. Succeeding at that, then the Russians have can cause trouble for whoever wins, which is the Russian endgame. And Trump was an absolute gift.

I’m not sure where the intentional relationships with Russia that Manafort, Flynn, etc. fit in, but I am thinking that now Russia never intended this scurrilous collusion scheme to remain quiet - it was a plan to publicly cause a mess from the beginning.


#18

BTW, did you edit on the Democratic coup or did I miss it? My point there is that you don’t accuse a sitting President of treason without hard evidence. The indication is that the dossier was fake and the co-founder of the company that produced it just pleaded the 5th. If this has been manufactured by the Democrats (and frankly I think that is about as likely as the claims they’re making) then that also rises to the level of treason, and frankly, a coup attempt.

It could be that it’s all a Russian game and it was orchestrated without either party’s involvement. That’s something that needs to be seriously considered when dealing with a long-term enemy of the US. I do hope that we actually can and will learn the truth. I will not claim to “know” what happened (or even I think such and such unlike several other posters). It’s all speculation at this point. I will say that none other than the rather liberal Dershowitz (a legal mind I have a hard time ignoring) has expressed some real concern about the special counsel appointment without actual evidence, i.e. it’s a fishing expedition. In any event, as I said before, no good is going to come of this.


#19

(Not quite sure what you mean about he “Coup” part, SB…other than me mentioning that I didn’t know where you were going with that…)

I can’t speak for others…but I have never accused the President of Treason and/or collusion…or even suggested it.

Donald Trump appears to be a “Big Picture/Do-what-I-say-no-questions-asked” person who doesn’t get into a lot of detail.

What appears to be more likely is that Trump’s Minions…not Trump himself…saw an opening to dig up more dirt on Clinton…and make a LOT of money along the way (especially Manafort and Flynn). Kushner and Jr. where merely inexperienced guys, caught up in International intrigue, with ex-KGB, killers, thugs and money-launderers.They were Frat Boys who thought that just because they smoked joints they could get involved in International Drug Trafficking.

So…no accusations here…just trying to make sense of it all.

As someone pointed out recently…Robert Mueller will surely come up will all the facts.

In the end, I agree with you (I think)…nothing “good” is going to come out of any of this…and our Country will be worse off for the experience.


#20

You say this because you are already assuming the outcome. If Trump or his team did conspire with the Russians, and they are prosecuted accordingly, then something good absolutely will come of it. And our country will be better off because of it, not worse.