I agree with optheta. Though I have noticed its not the groups that are the issue. It is Who is controlling the groups that are causing the issues. I served in the military with all walks of life and we never had any issues. Some of the finest men I have served with were black, Mexican, Porterican(sp)and Asian. Then I get back to Pittsburgh as a civilian and see all the bull shit that goes on in the inner cities and else where. Sends me through the roof. Education is our only hope since those that want to keep racism a live and well are to well funded.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Everyone is about their own tribe in the end.[/quote]
What if you don’t know which tribe you belong to?[/quote]
Don’t leave your house, ever. [/quote]
I see the right in every human person, in its dual aspect of the possibility to leave oneâ??s country and the possibility to enter another country to look for better conditions of life. At the same time, States have the right to regulate migration flows and to defend their own frontiers, always guaranteeing the respect due to the dignity of each and every human person. Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.
When I work in/with Europeans, I speak German, French and Russian. When I work in/with South Americans, I speak Spanish. When I’m in the middle east, I try and speak Arabic. I’m in their home, I will respect that.
This is the Western mindset. The non-Western mindset is the opposite.
Multi-cult is death. No other way about it.
If anyone is interested, read a book called “Camp of the Saints”. I’ve read it in both English and French, and the English version is a little hard to read. However, along the lines of this topic, it is a good book.
Rather depressing though.
You can’t blame people for wanting a better life for themselves and their families. Especially when they are living somewhere in which they are all in at least potential danger.
However… invariably any area with a high level of immigration suffers from increasingly higher levels of crime as immigration increases, and you can’t blame the natives for becoming resentful of this… after all they are the people who have gradually built up their communities over generations.
I am not suggesting for one single second, ‘every immigrant is responsible for crime’ that would be absurd. Unfortunately the people who behave in a less than respectful manner in their community are the ones who tend to tarnish the reputation of their respective ethnic group. I am from London and British holiday makers have a terrible reputation (and rightly so) in places like Ibiza, many football supporters have also give us a terrible name: and these labels stick-does that mean I deserve to wear the same label?
It’s inevitable people will move around in search of new, more comfortable and prosperous surroundings for themselves, places like Ireland and England are on their fucking knees, I know plenty of people who are planning to emigrate, Australia and New Zealand are common destinations for Brits and Canada is latest on the map for them nowadays.
I’m giving serious consideration to moving to the USA, and in a few more years-like four or five may well be eligible to come over and get a pretty decent job-hopefully you guys won’t hate me for it!
One thing I have noticed about minorities in the UK is that they tend to stick together and build their own communities within a community: which they are entitled to do, and this goes to show that irrespective or where people are globally they still want to remain within their own ‘mini’ community, if that makes sense?
The effect of this is that it can in some cases lessen the existing community spirit for the local/native people. There are huge English communities in Cyprus and Spain for example and I’m sure the Spanish hate them.
Another example of this is Prisons-ask someone like AC or watch any program on the subject-in prison people all group together respective of their races. Problems then occur when the different nationalities/races in a pluralistic/multicultural community ‘clash’ -usually caused by a degree of intolerance/disrespect towards one another, multiculturalism is already here, there and everywhere- and is here to stay, the only way people will be able to get along is if they become more respectful of each others cultures, customs and religions.
BB
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
I used to think multiculturalism was a good thing, all the politically correct thing. But in reality I didnt have clue. Now I see that it is a direct menace to the overall collective happiness of a society.
In Qc we dont have a big history in immigration. Throughout history french-canadians were isolated. that is why we are seen as friendly and accepting by the immigrants. Yes we are, but it is a result of ignorance. I think this is gonna change in the near future with the current massive influx of immigrant. but then it will be too late. Shit will be as ugly as everywhere else and Quebeccer will not be seen as friendly anymore. I think the happiness of the society will diminish. It is a shame no one sees this and we keep accepting people.
I am still interested in knowing your opinion.[/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Everyone is about their own tribe in the end.[/quote]
What if you don’t know which tribe you belong to?[/quote]
Don’t leave your house, ever. [/quote]
I see the right in every human person, in its dual aspect of the possibility to leave oneâ??s country and the possibility to enter another country to look for better conditions of life. At the same time, States have the right to regulate migration flows and to defend their own frontiers, always guaranteeing the respect due to the dignity of each and every human person. Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I like this. If I ever emigrate I will respect the country that has ‘accepted me’ and its people and customs.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Everyone is about their own tribe in the end.[/quote]
What if you don’t know which tribe you belong to?[/quote]
Don’t leave your house, ever. [/quote]
I see the right in every human person, in its dual aspect of the possibility to leave one�¢??s country and the possibility to enter another country to look for better conditions of life. At the same time, States have the right to regulate migration flows and to defend their own frontiers, always guaranteeing the respect due to the dignity of each and every human person. Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I like this. If I ever emigrate I will respect the country that has ‘accepted me’ and its people and customs.
[/quote]
You should like it, it is the policy of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we will abandon the concept of hating our own national identity, and accept the greater traditions and customs of our identity shared with people of our homeland, as well as respecting other countries traditions and customs.
I have a hypothesis that the reason we – Americans – have a tendency to dislike other’s cultures, customs, and traditions is because we hate having our own. We dislike “rules” therefore that is our culture, custom, and tradition to attempt to block all traditions as if they were equally evil.
Humanity does not survive without tradition, culture, customs, prejudice, &c. It allows us to act expediently and in the correct manner. If we had to sit down and research every decision we ever made, it would take an extraordinary amount of time to do anything.
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
It is the lack of national identity that has crippled this country. This is the only country who retains a hyphen when describing Americans and the type of Americans. You don’t see this in any other part of the world.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we will abandon the concept of hating our own national identity, and accept the greater traditions and customs of our identity shared with people of our homeland, as well as respecting other countries traditions and customs.
I have a hypothesis that the reason we – Americans – have a tendency to dislike other’s cultures, customs, and traditions is because we hate having our own. We dislike “rules” therefore that is our culture, custom, and tradition to attempt to block all traditions as if they were equally evil.
Humanity does not survive without tradition, culture, customs, prejudice, &c. It allows us to act expediently and in the correct manner. If we had to sit down and research every decision we ever made, it would take an extraordinary amount of time to do anything.[/quote]
Hmmm, I think I should have been more clear. I think that culture is a good thing (bounded by your culture not interfering with my freedoms). I’m not advocating some homogeneous world society where everyone drinks starbucks and talks about Glee, that would be awful. I’m talking about the mind set of “America is the greatest and I’ll fight and die for my country because I’m a patriot!” That’s idiotic and dangerous. I’m not sure if we disagree or not Chris, because I’m not sure what you’re driving at.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
It is the lack of national identity that has crippled this country. This is the only country who retains a hyphen when describing Americans and the type of Americans. You don’t see this in any other part of the world. [/quote]
How has this crippled our country?
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
It is the lack of national identity that has crippled this country. This is the only country who retains a hyphen when describing Americans and the type of Americans. You don’t see this in any other part of the world. [/quote]
How has this crippled our country?[/quote]
You are from California and not seen the degradation of our state over the years? Are you kidding ? Are you in the Bay Area? This clusterfuck of a state?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
It is the lack of national identity that has crippled this country. This is the only country who retains a hyphen when describing Americans and the type of Americans. You don’t see this in any other part of the world. [/quote]
How has this crippled our country?[/quote]
You are from California and not seen the degradation of our state over the years? Are you kidding ? Are you in the Bay Area? This clusterfuck of a state? [/quote]
I live in the northern end of the central valley. I’m not a native though, so I wouldn’t have perspective on long term trends or anything.
So I understand how you could say that America or California has problems. But I’m not sure of the role that people identifying themselves as African-American or Mexican-American (or whatever) plays.
I would say the emerging culture of instant gratification and entitlement is a serious problem. Or the current state of education is a problem. Hyphens don’t bother me so much.
I would agree with your take on instant gratification, but I view that more as an ideology than something cultural. What we have are generation differences that are shaping (or in this case ruining) the country. Our generation (me being 35) is probably the last generation to grasp the idea of working hard for what you want. Each following generation has taken a path toward being entitled for it.
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
I would say the emerging culture of instant gratification and entitlement is a serious problem. Or the current state of education is a problem. Hyphens don’t bother me so much.
[/quote]
Instant gratification and entitlement have nothing to do with the lack of identity, and I would argue they are a pseudo-intellectual discussion piece: nobody will really argue against them, but they don’t add anything new to any relevant discussion.
The lack of identity has to do with the perversion of “tolerance.” Let’s allow immigrants to come here and encourage them to keep their own language (nothing wrong with that) and live in their own communities (nothing wrong with that). What happens over time when we provide multilingual phone menus for every possible government service? Allow bilingual education? Let these people set up nearly their own communities almost like mini sovereign states within the actual states of the country?
It creates a differential between them and the larger community. It gives them incentive to stick together and NOT have to integrate, and each immigrant who comes here inherently believes that taking on an “American identity” is this colonial style flushing out of their motherland values. It doesn’t have to be, and in fact other countries manage to balance both the central culture and the immigrant’s mother culture quite well–just look at Brazil.
That’s what I’m getting at. There’s no incentive to mix in the US. It’s retarded. I’m in the Bay Area and there’s a LOT of mixing and I like that, but generally speaking, communities can establish themselves and get buy without having to mix much outside of the community, and that means less incentive to care about national politics, national culture, national values.
Most immigrants only act American when they want benefits from the government. That’s when everybody’s “American.”
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
I would say the emerging culture of instant gratification and entitlement is a serious problem. Or the current state of education is a problem. Hyphens don’t bother me so much.
[/quote]
Instant gratification and entitlement have nothing to do with the lack of identity, and I would argue they are a pseudo-intellectual discussion piece: nobody will really argue against them, but they don’t add anything new to any relevant discussion.
[/quote]
You’re absolutely correct. I just wanted to purpose something that I felt was a legit problem to point out that Max’s concerns over hyphenation were, in my opinion, a bit trivial. I should have picked something less cliche and more relevant. I’ll try not to do that again here.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
The lack of identity has to do with the perversion of “tolerance.” Let’s allow immigrants to come here and encourage them to keep their own language (nothing wrong with that) and live in their own communities (nothing wrong with that). What happens over time when we provide multilingual phone menus for every possible government service? Allow bilingual education? Let these people set up nearly their own communities almost like mini sovereign states within the actual states of the country?
It creates a differential between them and the larger community. It gives them incentive to stick together and NOT have to integrate, and each immigrant who comes here inherently believes that taking on an “American identity” is this colonial style flushing out of their motherland values. It doesn’t have to be, and in fact other countries manage to balance both the central culture and the immigrant’s mother culture quite well–just look at Brazil.
That’s what I’m getting at. There’s no incentive to mix in the US. It’s retarded. I’m in the Bay Area and there’s a LOT of mixing and I like that, but generally speaking, communities can establish themselves and get buy without having to mix much outside of the community, and that means less incentive to care about national politics, national culture, national values.
Most immigrants only act American when they want benefits from the government. That’s when everybody’s “American.”
[/quote]
I just don’t think the concerns you’ve voiced are adding up to a significantly damaging affect. I think its rare that any one family remains in America for over a generation and not begin to seriously integrate. I’m sure you can point out some isolated barrios, but those would be the exception, not the rule.
I used to work landscaping here in the central valley, and a bunch of my co-workers were first generation Mexican immigrants. Yeah, they stuck together. Sure, they spoke mostly Spanish. They were all decent guys who made the effort to learn English, and did to varying degrees. Their families were essentially American (or they were Mexican-American, if that suits you better). Their kids spoke English and watched MTV. I would claim that those guys, and possibly your experience down in the bay, represent the rule, not the exception.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
It is the lack of national identity that has crippled this country. This is the only country who retains a hyphen when describing Americans and the type of Americans. You don’t see this in any other part of the world. [/quote]
Could you elaborate ?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
It is the lack of national identity that has crippled this country. This is the only country who retains a hyphen when describing Americans and the type of Americans. You don’t see this in any other part of the world. [/quote]
Could you elaborate ?
[/quote]
By maintaining this cultural divide, it keeps us from being one people. The use of a hyphen is a metaphorical line drawn in the sand, and it has worked at keeping at arms distance of others.
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we will abandon the concept of hating our own national identity, and accept the greater traditions and customs of our identity shared with people of our homeland, as well as respecting other countries traditions and customs.
I have a hypothesis that the reason we – Americans – have a tendency to dislike other’s cultures, customs, and traditions is because we hate having our own. We dislike “rules” therefore that is our culture, custom, and tradition to attempt to block all traditions as if they were equally evil.
Humanity does not survive without tradition, culture, customs, prejudice, &c. It allows us to act expediently and in the correct manner. If we had to sit down and research every decision we ever made, it would take an extraordinary amount of time to do anything.[/quote]
Hmmm, I think I should have been more clear. I think that culture is a good thing (bounded by your culture not interfering with my freedoms). I’m not advocating some homogeneous world society where everyone drinks starbucks and talks about Glee, that would be awful. I’m talking about the mind set of “America is the greatest and I’ll fight and die for my country because I’m a patriot!” That’s idiotic and dangerous. I’m not sure if we disagree or not Chris, because I’m not sure what you’re driving at.
[/quote]
I’m not sure what you’re driving at, either.
Besides the fact that America is the greatest country in the world, and the fact that I would fight and die for my country (which has been scaled back to I’ll fight and die for my property, I wouldn’t fight to oppress people, but if someone attacked America I’d have no problem) and the fact that patriotism is a good virtue to have.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Revolution?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I would agree with your take on instant gratification, but I view that more as an ideology than something cultural. What we have are generation differences that are shaping (or in this case ruining) the country. Our generation (me being 35) is probably the last generation to grasp the idea of working hard for what you want. Each following generation has taken a path toward being entitled for it. [/quote]
It’s because of this positivism and “rights” that people think they have. I know the root of the problem (our fallen nature) however the manifestation is the idea that people have “rights” when they clearly do not. I have a right to free education! No, you do not. I have a right to marry! No, you don’t. I have a right to have sex! No, you do not. I have a right to equal dividends! No, you don’t.