Young People and Suicide/Violence

I found out today that a freshmen committed suicide. I had no relations with them, however since I heard the news, I’ve been thinking about suicides and school shootings.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family, but you have to really be at your wits end to kill yourself. I’ve never been in any situation where I could truthfully say I want to kill myself, and it is a shame that this particular person felt that the only way to deal or cope with things was in this particular manner.

My other point of discussion is on school shootings. Now I work in a grocery store, and there is just as much of a chance hypothetically that someone could walk into the store and blow everyone away as there is someone going into a school and killing everyone.

I would think a big factor in these two ideas is the psychology of the person. I wouldn’t know for sure because I’ve never taken a psychology class before and I’m not the person.

My reasoning behind bringing these topics up is because I plan on becoming a high school teacher. The last thing I want to worry about is a student coming to class and jeprodizing the other students lives along with my own.

I feel that if we can discuss this and better understand it the better we as a people can help those in need get help.

-xb

I don’t know what the laws are in Indiana, but you can look into concealed carry. It would take some convincing to get your school to allow teachers to carry, but if you do some research you will be able to come up with plenty of info to support concealed carry (or even open carry) for teachers that are trained with handguns.

The simplest argument is that it eliminates the fish in a barrel scenario.

I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure you’re more likely to be killed in a lightening strike or convenience store robbery than in a school shooting. So that’s good!

As for suicides, I believe that older men lead the pack statistically, but college students follow closely behind (much higher rate for their age group than non-college). I suspect this is the case because smart kids are inclined to trust their own thinking. Having evaluated a situation they’ll assume they’re correct in any judgments they make, because generally they are correct in their analyses. When despair sets in, they believe they’re being rational when they decide that there’s no hope, that nothing will ever change for the better. It can be difficult to work with kids like that because of the combination of intellectual self-reliance and, in such cases, emotional immaturity.

It’ll never happen. Nor should it.

You can’t force people to want to live that have no reason to.

That’s a personal choice; unfortunately, family, friends, and loved ones never see it that way.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
You can’t force people to want to live that have no reason to.

That’s a personal choice; unfortunately, family, friends, and loved ones never see it that way.[/quote]

Do you really believe that, Lifticus? That a kid who believes his life is over, because he got dumped by his girlfriend and then slept and drank too much and failed a couple of classes, really has no reason to live?

creeeeeeeeek… (what’s that noise? could be the can of worms this thread is opening)

My very short opinion, people that do these violent acts, whether random violence against their schools/coworkers or suicide are extremely selfish bottom line. They get too much attention as is, I hope we can keep this thread civil.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Do you really believe that, Lifticus? That a kid who believes his life is over, because he got dumped by his girlfriend and then slept and drank too much and failed a couple of classes, really has no reason to live?
[/quote]

I really don’t know what I believe in this regard. Having a life purpose is a very personal thing and really I don’t believe anyone has a purpose to live. I breathe, I live, I exist. I try to abide my life purposefully but whether or not my life is worth living is a personal choice.

I do not try to rationalize the thoughts of others regarding value judgments and purpose. This does not mean I believe people who act always act with with the “best” choice of outcome. But again, this isn’t for me to decide.

On a personal note, as someone who has experience with this, I can only say we who choose to life will never understand those that choose death.

In the end we can only make our own purpose and make sure to show up for game day. People that can’t be motivated to do that for themselves really have no hope.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
It’ll never happen. Nor should it.[/quote]

You maybe right that it won’t ever happen, but why shouldn’t it?

It is no surprise Kliplemet falls in that age group.

On a serious note. My Dad had an expression he used to say when someone committed suicide or tried to do so:

“Permanent solution to a temporary problem.”

I find these kinds of acts extremely selfish. The ones committing the act cannot fathom the grief that they cause their loved ones.

Maybe a reality check is in order. Such as a trip to a children’s hospital where children are clinging to every breath of life. Maybe the parents’ sorrow will sink in a little. Maybe they’ll realize how fortunate they are and not fitting in with the “cool kids” doesn’t mean jack shit.

I’m going to get slamed for this, but in the case of suicide, it’s just Darwin at work people.

Lifticus, I think that you’re perhaps less given to emotional reaction than is usual. So let’s say that you score an 8 on a 1-10 scale of rationality. That being the case, if ever you decide to commit suicide, there would be very little I, or anyone else, could do to convince you otherwise. You would simply have wearied of living your life, and wish not to do so any longer.

Someone who scores at the other end of the scale, a 2 on the 1-10 rational scale, is much more likely to be behaving in reaction to emotion. Sudden overwhelming despair over a lost love/job/whatever.

It’s very different for that person. Your assumption is that everyone will think clearly about their wishes, but not everyone is capable of that. Even some generally clear-thinking people can become emotional and reactive in certain situations (if too many things happen at once).

These emotionally reactive people want an end to their seemingly unending pain, and believe the only way to achieve that is through ending life. Given alternative ways to ameliorate the pain, they report being glad to be alive.

If pain cannot be ameliorated, then I agree with you that a person should have the right to choose death.

tedro, I believe it shouldn’t for a number of reasons. Chief among them are that it would be an incredibly adversarial, hostile stance for a teacher to take. “I need to protect myself from you animals,” would be the take-away message. The teacher/student relationship is meant to be a positive one.

Not all kids view teachers positively, of course. In which case I believe that having teachers carry would result in having hostile students do the same. A powder keg situation.

Another reason is that I don’t think teachers are, as a rule, well suited to making deadly snap judgments. Things can become heated very quickly in a high school. You’re sitting there quietly doing your work when all of a sudden all this noise and shouting and banging starts. Just a fight, but there’s a huge adrenaline surge, and it’s pretty intense until everyone is brought under control. Teachers tend to be the more emotional type discussed above. They’re motivated by emotion (a desire to “teach,” to “make a difference,” to “inspire passion”). How much training would be required to make the average teacher a cool-headed actor in a dangerous drama? Too much, in my opinion.

There are other reasons, but that’s the tip of the iceberg. The main thing is, I think, that if the OP is afraid of students, he shouldn’t choose teaching as a career. He’ll be a poor teacher, as well as a profoundly unhappy one.

[quote]Chewie wrote:

“Permanent solution to a temporary problem.”
[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Do you really believe that, Lifticus? That a kid who believes his life is over, because he got dumped by his girlfriend and then slept and drank too much and failed a couple of classes, really has no reason to live?

I really don’t know what I believe in this regard. Having a life purpose is a very personal thing and really I don’t believe anyone has a purpose to live. I breathe, I live, I exist. I try to abide my life purposefully but whether or not my life is worth living is a personal choice.

I do not try to rationalize the thoughts of others regarding value judgments and purpose. This does not mean I believe people who act always act with with the “best” choice of outcome. But again, this isn’t for me to decide.

On a personal note, as someone who has experience with this, I can only say we who choose to life will never understand those that choose death.

In the end we can only make our own purpose and make sure to show up for game day. People that can’t be motivated to do that for themselves really have no hope.[/quote]

You have a very callous and cold response to this. I think you attempting to show some kind of strength by stating what you did. However, what if someone you were very close to like your wife suddenly felt into a depression and contemplated suicide. Would you hold to your “such is life if they want to go let them” or would you want to help them get beyond the rough patch get better and be able to manage life again?

D

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
tedro, I believe it shouldn’t for a number of reasons. Chief among them are that it would be an incredibly adversarial, hostile stance for a teacher to take. “I need to protect myself from you animals,” would be the take-away message. The teacher/student relationship is meant to be a positive one.
[/quote]

Actually the stance is more of a “I’m going to put my life on the line and challenge the shooter to protect the other students.” Remember, we already have on site police officers that carry weapons, not for their own protection, but for the protection of the school.

I disagree, but I cannot dispute your statement as we simply do not know and cannot know unless concealed carry is allowed.

As a rule, I agree with you. I would never advocate that all, and probably most, teachers should be allowed to carry. But you cannot claim that there are not some teachers that are more than capable of making the proper decision in a given situation. I would not be against requiring teachers that want to carry to pass extra tests and requirements above and beyond what is required for a typical citizen. Perhaps something more in line with police training, with physical and written tests.

[quote]
There are other reasons, but that’s the tip of the iceberg. The main thing is, I think, that if the OP is afraid of students, he shouldn’t choose teaching as a career. He’ll be a poor teacher, as well as a profoundly unhappy one.[/quote]

Agreed.

Aren’t there more suicides than murders in the US? You never hear about it because the media never writes or talks about it.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Lifticus, I think that you’re perhaps less given to emotional reaction than is usual.
[/quote]
I do not think emotion and rationality have anything to do with each other. Everyone has emotion because they have incomplete facets to receive signals form the world as it exists outside their own body. Emotions are due to incomplete signals received from the universe in the form of sight, touch, taste, hearing, and smell. Emotions lead to value judgment. They are the lens in which we perceive reality.

Just because I may or may not have the same reaction to emotion as someone else does does not mean I act any more or less rationally. Everyone must rationalize in order to act. What you are attempting to do is place a value judgment on how one acts based on their emotion. These two ideas are incompatible with each other.

No. I never make assumptions about why people behave they way they do. I do not assume people are rational or irrational but rather that they act with what they deem to be the “best” choice for removing some felt uneasiness. To act is to be rational because before one can act one must necessarily rationalize such actions; what one attempts to do by judging such actions is to place a value on individual actions.

This cannot be logically done outside of one’s own personal value judgment and hence it holds no relevance to individual reality. This does not mean I think one who acts in such a way is acting correctly (as perhaps in relationship to how I would act under the same circumstance); just that they have made a rational choice to act. What would be the basis for judgment of such individual action?

If you can answer this question then you must necessarily make an assumption that there is such a notion as normative human behavior – organically speaking, we are too complex to be able to answer such questions definitively, in my opinion.

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
what if someone you were very close to like your wife suddenly felt into a depression and contemplated suicide…?
D[/quote]

I would unsuccessfully attempt to rationalize it with respect to what I felt was normal.

I would be extremely upset.

DickBag wrote
“its as if its fashionable or something”

This is so true in todays society.

Only a matter of time until we see ads like:

“Be the cool kid in school and kill yourself in style with the brand new LiveStrong Nike Noose, Just do it!”

and

“Are you tired of the same old weakass suicide note, sign up with AT&T and get unlimited Suicide Text Alert sent directly to all the fuckers who dont appreciate you via text on their cell phones.”

The town I live in(Cherry Hill) has a HUGE suicide rate. Going through middle school and H.S. everyone was knocking themselves off, I just don’t get it…

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
I’m going to get slamed for this, but in the case of suicide, it’s just Darwin at work people. [/quote]

I absolutely agree.