T Nation

Yet Another First Cycle Thread


#1

Hooray!

Anyways, pretty simple and straight forward but figured a few more experienced eyes taking a look won't hurt anyone.

The plan:
Wk 1-12 300mg Test E injected Mondays and Fridays for a total of 600mg per week
â?¢ Frontload of 600mg in the first pin
Wk 1-12 0.5g Arimidex EOD

Wk 13-14 off

PCT:
First day: Clomid 250mg + Nolvadex 60mg
10 days: Clomid 100mg + Nolvadex 40mg
10 days: Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg

Especially interested in opinions on my PCT, there is rather a lot of information out there that is conflicting sometimes, many seem to just do Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg for 3 weeks straight And that seems to work as well, so any recommendations are very welcome.


#2

There’s evidence that clomid and nolvadex may actually counteract each other. There’s increasing number of people who think clomid actually does nothing for PCT.

I’m dropping it out of my PCT and running nolva only with HCG blast 10 days prior to my first nolva at 500ui ed (total of 5,000ui).


#3

Stats? Age, height, weight, BF%, years of training. It’s typically the first thing to determine whether you’re even ready for AAS.


#4

Don’t bother with the front load imo. Use an oral if you want a kickstart.
You’ll want to run your AI up to pct, tapered down if you like, as the test will still be active.
For pct the best study I’ve seen shows nolva at 20mg for 6 weeks is a better choice. I don’t have personal experience with it yet but I’ll be starting it within the next 2 weeks.


#5

[quote]Saftfrucht wrote:
Hooray!

Anyways, pretty simple and straight forward but figured a few more experienced eyes taking a look won’t hurt anyone.

The plan:
Wk 1-12 300mg Test E injected Mondays and Fridays for a total of 600mg per week
â?¢ Frontload of 600mg in the first pin
Wk 1-12 0.5g Arimidex EOD

Wk 13-14 off

PCT:
First day: Clomid 250mg + Nolvadex 60mg
10 days: Clomid 100mg + Nolvadex 40mg
10 days: Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg

Especially interested in opinions on my PCT, there is rather a lot of information out there that is conflicting sometimes, many seem to just do Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg for 3 weeks straight And that seems to work as well, so any recommendations are very welcome.[/quote]

the cycle looks solid. however, i would run the A-dex in weeks 13-14, as well.

as far as PCT, i suggest choosing a single SERM… either Toremifine, Nolvadex or Clomid.


#6

[quote]Steez wrote:
Stats? Age, height, weight, BF%, years of training. It’s typically the first thing to determine whether you’re even ready for AAS. [/quote]

25, 5’6, 161 at 9%, 5 years. No offense, but the only person I will give any heed to on whether or not I am ready is really myself. It’s just about the how.

[quote]nooberific wrote:
There’s evidence that clomid and nolvadex may actually counteract each other. There’s increasing number of people who think clomid actually does nothing for PCT.
[/quote]

Interesting, can you link? My state of research was that they even complement each other.

[quote]The-German wrote:
Don’t bother with the front load imo. Use an oral if you want a kickstart.[/quote]

Too chicken for orals, want to be as safe as possible and definitely stick to test only to have an easier time identifying the cause and magnitude of sides without having to guess which drug cause what side.

[quote]The-German wrote:
You’ll want to run your AI up to pct, tapered down if you like, as the test will still be active.[/quote]

Makes a lot of sense, thanks!

So no clom in your opinion either? What made me very curious is the difference in the approaches, I see a steady dose over the entire PCT frequently and on the other hand the tapering option I introduced above makes a lot of sense in my eyes.
Why would you prefer a steady dose?


#7

^the taper or multiple SERM concept has no data or actual proof to show it works. it’s simply “broscience.”

seriously, read the thread i link above…


#8

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

seriously, read the thread i link above…[/quote]

Your post didn’t show yet when I last posted.

Very interesting info, so to recap the consequence on my planning would be:

Wk 1-12 300mg Test E injected Mondays and Fridays for a total of 600mg per week
Frontload of 600mg in the first pin
Wk 1-14 0.5g Arimidex EOD

Wk 15-26 20mg Nolvadex ED

Another thing I noticed is you are recommending Aromasin over Arimidex - to what extent? Do you recommend I get Aromasin regardless or simply go forward with the Adex I already got?

Thanks a lot for the input so far, very interesting.


#9

Letrozole is the most effective AI although it is trickier to dose than adex. I believe Letro was shown to be 98% effective with as little as .25mg eod.


#10

[quote]nooberific wrote:
Letrozole is the most effective AI although it is trickier to dose than adex. I believe Letro was shown to be 98% effective with as little as .25mg eod.[/quote]

in women. not in men…

none of the AI’s are nearly as strong in men as they are in women…


#11

[quote]Saftfrucht wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

seriously, read the thread i link above…[/quote]

Your post didn’t show yet when I last posted.

Very interesting info, so to recap the consequence on my planning would be:

Wk 1-12 300mg Test E injected Mondays and Fridays for a total of 600mg per week
Frontload of 600mg in the first pin
Wk 1-14 0.5g Arimidex EOD

Wk 15-26 20mg Nolvadex ED

Another thing I noticed is you are recommending Aromasin over Arimidex - to what extent? Do you recommend I get Aromasin regardless or simply go forward with the Adex I already got?

Thanks a lot for the input so far, very interesting.[/quote]

i think aromasin is easier for most people to use, as the half-life is so much shorter you can make quicker adjustments. it also works better with nolvadex (a-dex and nolva have an interaction where they decrease the blood levels of each other).

however, if you have the a-dex, it should work just fine for you.


#12

Okay, so another thing I was wondering about is supplements on the cycle. Especially Creatine and Glutamine. I have done some research, also here on the forum, and there again seem to be pretty widespread opinions on this.

Some questions to the experienced AAS users…

  1. Do you feel that Creatine has any value at all on a cycle, or even negative, especially with regards to water retention that is already increased anyway?

  2. I have read a lot about the use of Creatine and Glutamine post cycle only, not taking it on the cycle, in order to facilitate the retention of a larger portion of the cycle gains. I am somewhat sceptic if this would really increase retained gains.

So overall the main question I am wondering about is, is there more value in these supplements if I stop using them until the cycle ends or if I keep using them throughout.

If anyone can link me to any studies on the matter that would be great of course.


#13

[quote]Saftfrucht wrote:
Okay, so another thing I was wondering about is supplements on the cycle. Especially Creatine and Glutamine. I have done some research, also here on the forum, and there again seem to be pretty widespread opinions on this.

Some questions to the experienced AAS users…

  1. Do you feel that Creatine has any value at all on a cycle, or even negative, especially with regards to water retention that is already increased anyway?

  2. I have read a lot about the use of Creatine and Glutamine post cycle only, not taking it on the cycle, in order to facilitate the retention of a larger portion of the cycle gains. I am somewhat sceptic if this would really increase retained gains.

So overall the main question I am wondering about is, is there more value in these supplements if I stop using them until the cycle ends or if I keep using them throughout.

If anyone can link me to any studies on the matter that would be great of course.[/quote]

Just use them throughout your cycle and afterward. You will make greater gains and retain what you built if you don’t slack on your diet and training.