T Nation

Yet ANOTHER Fat fast discussion

You can tell it’s a New Year by all the interest in this right now. Believe me, I’ve been reading the FFD posts religiously, too. But I wantesd to tie some details all together with some essential follow-up questions for the group:

  1. How many days of 30g or less of carbs does it usually take to enter ketosis?
  2. What was the final group decision on the option of having a 24-hour (or one-day) “carb up” each week to ensure muscle preservation?
  3. You guys have posted your experiences with weight loss accomplishments using the FFD, but what are your experiences with muscle or strength loss, too? Any, or did Androsol ensure that you lost “zip, zero, nada” muscle like Brock?

On average I’d say that it takes about 3 days for most people to achieve ketosis, less for more experienced people. Personally I don’t feel that a 24hr carb-up will have that much of an anabolic effect to be worth it. You’ll just screw up ketosis and adaptation to it. Maybe a minute amount of high-glycemic carbs after your workout could help for endurance but I’m not completely sure how that will affect fat loss. I suspect that Brock really did lose muscle. It might not have been a large amount but it is impossible to completely maintain your lean weight on that many calories. Anabolics will only delay the inevitable or slow it. Strength loss is to be expected but you should still try to lift as heavy as possible.

I just got off of fat fast, and only had the carbs that were in my protein (<10g/day). I did use androsol, and while it seemed that I had lost strength and muscle while I was on it, as soon as I started eating carbs again it was all back. I was on it for 3 weeks. I also don’t think that the one day a week carb up is neede when on FFD. It only took a few days to be in ketosis, and you will be able to tell from the horrible smell of your urine that you are in it no matter how much H2O you drink, there is no need for keto-sticks

So if I go out with my wife for Pizza on friday night, will the crust and green peppers wreck my FFD?

I tried BodyOpus for 4 months to cut from 12%fb to 6%bf and didn’t lose any muscle, in fact gained 2 kgs on a 1500cal/day (12cal. per lb of LBM less 10%)
I followed letter of the law 48 hr carb-up every 2 hrs (night/day) sucking down liquid glycogen for the first 12hrs etc.
For supplements, I just took a fat burner, protein powder and a carb powder for loading.
I trained heavy Mon/Tues. cruised the rest of the week doing abs & 30 mins. on fat burning cycle and did a total depletion (2 hrs @40-50% intensity) on Fridays before carbing up again. Opus workz, for maintaining muscle on low cal. daily intakes and shedding fat.

You’re one of the lucky ones if you could do a 48 hr. carb-up on the “Opus” and still lose fat. I can say that for me personally having done it six ways to Sunday, I have to do the carb-up (24 hr) to avoid muscle loss. I did the tougher version of Opus where you went 12 days before carbing and lost way too much strength and LBM. That being said, the last time I did that type of approach I didn’t have access to a lot of the info that I know now such as extra potassium, water, alpha lipoic acid, etc. I get awesome results w. the 24 hr. carb-up but I have to follow it very strictly i.e. minimal fructose/sucrose, total gram amounts on carb-ups (I use Lyle McDonald’s approach), the one hr. of low-intensity cardio after the carb-up and not too much cardio during the keto phase other than that.

Teddy, I’m with you. I gotta walk a fine carb-up line. If I don’t do the carb-up, I lose muscle fast, but if the length of time exceeds a day and the carb choices are poor, I gain fat. I am thankful though that at least the caloric surplus for that day spares my metabolism as the diet wears on.

I would like to know though from anyone here, is strict adherence to Opus is what I NEED to do to get from 7% down to 5%. If I thought getting up every 2 hours in the night and sticking to very dull carb choices would get the job done, I would do it. Whatever it takes. My body tends to fight very hard against such low bodyfat levels, so I usually peak around 6-7%.

teddykgb, could you describe some of the basic learning that you’ve developed such as the extra potassium, ala, etc.? Or are they things that I’d be able to learn for myself from reading Lyle McDonald’s book? All I know is what I’ve read about the FFD, and the bodyopus approach is a new one. Sorry to ask such rudimentary questions, but if you know of some “tweaks” to enhance the FFD effects and spare muscle, I’d like a “dummy’s guide”. I’ve shown that I’m willing to do the work, but my willpower and discipline needs a little more enhancement from knowledge too.

Ak, I’ve got both Bodyopus and Lyle’s book and unless I’m missing something, neither goes into great detail on ALA or potassium.

I would like to know if you guys have seen big differences between doing the carb-up after the depletion workout or just carbing up without it. Sometimes I feel like human beings just weren’t meant to lift in such a lethargic state. I would definitely say though that the heavy days following carb-up are absolutely fantastic.

My initial experience w. the keto diets came from reading Duchaine’s Bodyopus book. I really fine tuned it w. Lyle’s book. He goes into detail on carb-up amounts, how much potassium/mag/etc. and whatnot. I just started tinkering w. lipoic acid a long time ago just from knowing that it was a glucose disposal agent, but I have recently been experimenting w. much higher doses. Lyle suggests in general anywhere from 1200 to 2000 mg but others on here, particularly during carb-ups advocate higher amounts to hasten ketosis after carbups. Minerals and electrolytes are excreted in much higher amts. on keto diets so it is definitely important to get some magnesium and potassium, and obviously a good multivitamin. One thing I would like to bring up again is the Fat Fast. It does not absolutely have to be followed to the letter. I think that if you skip the carb-up your fat to protein ratio becomes even more important, and I don’t necessarily think you need that low of a calorie level unless you are on a super strict deadline to make weight. Personally if you skip the carb-up I would go with a less harsh calorie regimen such as 12x bodyweight and just get approx. .9 to 1 g. protein/lb bw and get the rest from good ol’ fat, preferably flax, Udo’s, fish oil, etc. You can still lose fat quickly w. an approach like this. As far as Bodyopus goes, I think the carb level is way, way too high for the non-genetically gifted person (good insulin sensitivity, thyroid and whatnot). You’ll have to find what works best for you but I do very well keeping my carbup to 24 hrs, and I do get up every two hrs. to eat although an alternative approach is to consume a higher amt. of carbs w. fiber and fat before bed and just sleep normally. For those of you who have to have the details, Lyle’s book is HIGHLY recommended. He gives you calorie levels, protein and fat amounts, sample workouts, carb-up amounts, certain substances that can interfere w. ketosis- the whole thing. He even has a plan for someone who is doing a BB contest. It’s pretty easy to understand too.