T Nation

Yahweh: Exclusively the Jewish God?

Growing up Roman Catholic, I always had a difficulty reconciling the God of the Old Testament with the Jesus. I know this isn’t just me, for this inconsistency was noticed extremely early in the history of the church. Marcion of Sinope was the first Christian who pointed out this apparent difference. A long line of heretics followed his path, notably the gnostic movement. Eventually, they were squashed, but their writings have been retained in discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library. I have been catechized, attended Catholic school for 16 years, and still practice. To this day I cannot help but notice that OT God (YHWH) and Christ didn’t seem to match with their messages. I have done plenty of research regarding this matter. As much as I cannot stand Atheists, I understand their concern when they point out the rather bizaare behavior of YHWH, who seems to be rather petty and angry in the narratives of the old testament. Here are some examples/food for thought

OLD TESTAMENT:

Numbers:11:4: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a hunger: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?5:
We remember the fish which we did eat in Egypt freely;
Numbers:21:5: And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for
there is no bread,neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.6: And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

New Testament (compare)
Matthew:7:9:
What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread
, will he give him a stone? 10:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11: If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things
to them that ask him? 12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets
.

Numbers:21:8: And
the LORD said unto Moses,Make thee a fiery serpent
, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that
every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live
.9: And Moses made a serpent of brass
, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that
if a serpent had bitten any man when he beheld the serpent of brass he lived"

I was taught that this was a foreshadow of Jesus being lifted up on a cross. But whats the deal with the OT God and Serpents?

Old Testament:

Exodus:19:18: And
mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke,because the LORD descended upon it in fire
: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace
, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Deuteronomy:4:11: And ye came near and stood under the mountain;and
the mountain burned with fire
unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness

New Testament:
Revelation:9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.2: And
he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and
the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit

Old Testament:

Amos:5:20: Shall not
the day of the LORD be darkness
, and not light
? even very dark, and no brightness
in it? 21:I hate, I despise
your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

1 Kings:8:12: Then spake Solomon,
The LORD said
that he would dwell in the thick darkness

.Psalms:97:1: The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let themultitude of isles be glad thereof.2:
Clouds and darkness are round about him
:3: A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies roundabout.

New Testament:

John:12:46: I am come a light into the world, that
whosoever believeth on me
should not abide in darkness
.
Matthew:24:27: For
as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west
; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Thessalonians:2:8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
:

I also understand that Jesus never refers to God as (YHWH). Rather, he calls him “Heavenly Father.” or “ABBA” something equivalent to “Daddy”. On the cross when he dies, he says “Elohi, Elohi”. Now, a lot of secular research has been going around saying that El Elyon (the most high god) is different than (YHWH), but when Abraham set up the Alter in the Land of Canaan, he combined them. I find it interesting that Paul of Carthage refers to Christ as “A Priest in the order of Melchizedek.” Now, Melchizedek is an interesting fellow because the only time we seem him (except mentioned in third person in the wisdom books) is in Genesis, as the king of Salam in the Land of Cannan. He distributes the bread and wine to Abram, and blesses him. He is also mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and is in the Eucharistic Prayer in the Catholic Mass. But it begs the question, what is this man’s significance? Well the question needs to be asked, WHY DID THE HIGH PRIESTS OF JUDEA ACCUSE CHRIST OF CASTING OUT DEMONS THROUGH BEELZEBUB? Even more interesting, why did Christ and john the baptist refer to them as “a brood of vipers” and why did he say their father was the devil?

Matthew:23:15:
Woe unto you
, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites !for
ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte and
when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell thanyourselves
.Matthew:23:33:
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers
, how can yeescape the damnation of hell?

John:5:37: And
the Father himself
,which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.
Ye have neither heard his voice
at any time, nor seen his shape

Matthew:11:27: All things are delivered unto me of myFather: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son
, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Luke:10:22: All things are delivered to me of my Father:and
no man knoweth
who the Son is, but the Father; and
who the Father is, but the Son
, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

1 John:4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Ask, why does Jesus say no man has ever seen God? Abraham met with him in Genesis. Moses supposedly met with him on Mt. Sinai. Jacob saw him “face to face.”

Genesis:32:30: And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I
have seen God face to face
,and my life is preserved

So it seems either YHWH is evil, or he is presented as such. There are just so many contradictions.

Old Testament:

Deuteronomy:19:21: And
thine eye shall not pity
;but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

New Testament:
Luke:6:27: But I say unto you which hear,
Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you
,

Back to my other point. Canaan was Land of people that was notoriously polytheistic. One of their gods was “Baal” who is mentioned countless times in the Old Testament. Now in the New Testament, he is mentioned in the Gospels, when the Jews accuse Jesus of Casting out devils through Beelzebub (a varient of Baalzebub or Baal for short):
Matthew 9:34 But the Pharisees said, “It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons.”

Now if Jesus is a Priest in the order of Melchizedek, the High Priest seen in Genesis who worships (El Elyon–God the Most High), it would seem that it is plausible Jesus’ Father is different than the God of the Jews. I’m not saying the savior was a magician. On the Contrary, I think it is possible that the Jews knew exactly who he was, but tried to present him as evil. It is no surprise that in the Babylonian Talmud, the Jews brag about Christ being in hell.

It would also make sense that Salvation was necessary due to people being oppressed by a god of war.

1 Samuel 15: Samuel said to Saul, ?I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ?I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.??

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim?two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, ?Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.? So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves[b] and lambs?everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 ?I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.? Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

How can this be a good God? I have tried to understand through my Catholic Theology studies, but it doesn’t add up. This God kills children. This God seems to be ruthless.

Let us know when you figure it out.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 ?I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.? Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, ?Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal.?

13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, ?The LORD bless you! I have carried out the LORD?s instructions.?

14 But Samuel said, ?What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear??

15 Saul answered, ?The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the LORD your God, but we totally destroyed the rest.?

16 ?Enough!? Samuel said to Saul. ?Let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night.?

?Tell me,? Saul replied.

17 Samuel said, ?Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, ?Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.? 19 Why did you not obey the LORD? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD??

20 ?But I did obey the LORD,? Saul said. ?I went on the mission the LORD assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal.

Now, I don’t want to make a generalizations. I think all people who do good are children of God. But if the OT god is evil, is it possible this is why the Jews have always been expelled from countries and hated? Here is a list of countries the Jewish people have been expelled from since 250 AD in carthage.

                     250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
                     415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
                     554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
                     561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
                     612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
                     642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
                     855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                     876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
                    1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                    1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                    1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                    1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
                    1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
                    1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                    1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
                    1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
                    1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
                    1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
                    1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                    1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                    1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
                    1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                    1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                    1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                    1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                    1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
                    1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                    1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
                    1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
                    1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
                    1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
                    1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                    1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
                    1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                    1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                    1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                    1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                    1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
                    1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                    1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                    1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                    1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                    1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
                    1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
                    1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                    1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                    1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                    1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
                    1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
                    1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
                    1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
                    1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
                    1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                    1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                    1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
                    1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                    1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                    1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
                    1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                    1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                    1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
                    1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                    1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                    1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                    1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                    1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
                    1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
                    1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                    1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                    1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
                    1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
                    1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
                    1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
                    1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
                    1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
                    1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
                    1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
                    1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                    1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                    1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
                    1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                    1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                    1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
                    1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                    1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
                    1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                    1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
                    1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                    1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
                    1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
                    1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
                    1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
                    1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
                    1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                    1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
                    1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
                    1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
                    1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - L?beck & Bremen
                    1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
                    1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
                    1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
                    1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
                    1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
                    1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                    1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
                    1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
                    1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
                    1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries

I want it to be understood, that Christianity has never, historically speaking,been friends of the jews. In fact, the Jews have always oppressed Christians, but claim anti-semetism every time Christians go on the defensive. Prior to John Paul II, CHRISTIANITY WAS HOSTILE TO JEWS BECAUSE JEWS WERE HOSTILE TO CHRISTIANS. Martin Luther himself would be seen as the biggest “anti semite” if he lived today. Christ who called the jews “vipers” and “sons of the devil” would be viewed as anti Semitic.

What I never understood was why is the Holocaust considered such a big deal, if in our own Bible the jews themselves were commanded to commit genocide by God? Why do the Jews get so much sympathy when they were almost exterminated, when they themselves have exterminated other people? Why would a God want anybody to be exterminated?

Hitler’s army wore a belt that said “Gott Mit Uns”(God is with us). So Hitler’s God wanted to exterminate the jews. The jewish God wanted to exterminate the cannanite and other tribal groups. Is it possible that YHWH is a god of war, who simply exterminates anyone who does not obey him? Did YHWH use the Germans to punish the Jews?

So, historically, antisemitism was just a pretty normal reaction against the followers of an evil god ?

I really wonder what you would have said if you were prone to make generalizations.

LOL.

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Not sure whose alt-identity, but they certainly had their stuff lined up and ready to post.