WS4SB -- Rotating Exercises

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

Fellas,

One thing I struggle to comprehend with the WS4SB templates is how to go about rotating exercises. I read some of Tate’s stuff on her about periodization and such. But without more guidance, I feel that I’d basically be rotating without rhyme or reason.

Does anyone have any idea what principles to follow when rotating ME exercises? Does Joe DeFranco have a set rotation that he uses? For example, weeks 1-3 on bench, 4-6 on 2-board press, 7-9 on incline, 10-12 on floor press, 13-15 bench, etc.? Same question applies with the ME lower body movements. Is this kind of information available on DeFranco’s “Super Strength” DVD? If not, where else can you find it?

I think the ME/DE/RE system is fantastic, especially in the WS4SB context, but the idea of rotating exercises is the most confusing aspect to me. I’d really appreciate some feedback on this one.

2

Go to DeFranco’s website and read his whole ask questions column. It will take a while but do it, you will get much from it. Watch all his youtube videos.

Then go over to www.elitefts.com and read everything by Jim Wendler and Tate. Also go to the Q/A and read everything by DeFranco. Watch all the videos in the youtube section for inspiration and technical knowledge.

Wendler’s “bench like a stripper” and “Casual Friday” articles are great. Look at DeFranco’s log and pay attention to how he organizes the exercises. The biggest thing is going to be your weaknesses. That is going to dictate what you need. Only choose about 3-5 movements for ME work and stick with it for at least six months to a year unless you need to correct an abvious weakness.

“Super Strength” does not have any answers, it is more of an inspiration video than anything else. Other than probably the warmups you already know everyhting on there by reading the Skinny bastard articles.

Read everything that you can on EliteFTS you will learn much. Some things apply directly and others more broadly but everything helps. Don’t go out and buy supertraining, it is too advance and while it will help you understand some things, it is really meant for PHD’s and such. The best books I have read are “Starting Strength” and “Practical Programming” by Rippitoe and Kilgore, those two books kick ass.

3

[quote]BJJER wrote:
Go to DeFranco’s website and read his whole ask questions column. It will take a while but do it, you will get much from it. Watch all his youtube videos.

Then go over to www.elitefts.com and read everything by Jim Wendler and Tate. Also go to the Q/A and read everything by DeFranco. Watch all the videos in the youtube section for inspiration and technical knowledge.

Wendler’s “bench like a stripper” and “Casual Friday” articles are great. Look at DeFranco’s log and pay attention to how he organizes the exercises. The biggest thing is going to be your weaknesses. That is going to dictate what you need. Only choose about 3-5 movements for ME work and stick with it for at least six months to a year unless you need to correct an abvious weakness.

“Super Strength” does not have any answers, it is more of an inspiration video than anything else. Other than probably the warmups you already know everyhting on there by reading the Skinny bastard articles.

Read everything that you can on EliteFTS you will learn much. Some things apply directly and others more broadly but everything helps. Don’t go out and buy supertraining, it is too advance and while it will help you understand some things, it is really meant for PHD’s and such. The best books I have read are “Starting Strength” and “Practical Programming” by Rippitoe and Kilgore, those two books kick ass. [/quote]

Thanks, dude. I’m actually in the process of reading through DeFranco’s Q & A right now. I’m collecting a bunch of details about how to implement the program, but not too much stuff about rotating exercises.

Your explanation makes a lot of sense, but I have no idea what my “weaknesses” are at the moment. I’m tempted to say “everything.” I like the idea of sticking with 3-5 ME exercises and rotating those. If I understand correctly, it would be something like this:

Weeks 1-3 → Straight-bar box squat
Weeks 4-6 → Safety-bar box squat
Weeks 7-9 → Sumo deadlift
Weeks 10-12 → Straight-bar box squat
Weeks 13-15 → Safety-bar box squat
etc.

Or, for the upper body:

Weeks 1-3 → Regular bench
Weeks 4-6 → Floor press
Weeks 7-9 → Close-grip incline press
Weeks 10-12 → Regular bench
etc.

Also, you mention Joe’s log; where can I find that? Is it on elitefts.com?

One other thing I thought of: Does doing a lift like the deadlift just once a week for three weeks every 2 months provide enough time to develop technique? I’m afraid that I might get rusty at the lifts if I do them so infrequently.

4

A couple suggestions:

1.) For upper body, try alternating between full-range and partial range. For instance:

3-board press
Incline press
Floor press
Close-grip press

2.) For lower-body, try picking either the squat or deadlift and picking 3 lifts that you think will build that lift. For instance for conventional deadlift you might do:

Cambered bar box squat
Bottoms-up front squat
Box squat
Conventional deadlift

If you don’t know, which it sounds like you might, just guess. If it improves, then awesome. If not, then well at least you learned what doesn’t work for you at this time.

For ME exercises, I really feel like at the beginner to intermediate stage you can pretty much just rotate them at random for a while until you start figuring things out.

5

Those rotations will work, but I’d include another DL variation (I like rack pulls slightly above mid-shin) and maybe an overhead press. My rotation is:

Back Squat
Rack Pull
Front Squat
Deadlift

and

Overhead Press
Bench
Push Press
Pin Press

I don’t really like maxing on incline bench, but if you do then go for it. I use inclines for my RE days sometimes and for the supplemental lift sometimes.

Probably important to note: I’m not a competitive powerlifter. If I were I’d probably drop the overhead work for ME days and just focus on bench variations.

If you’re worried about losing technique on DLs, just use them for your supplemental lift on ME lower body day. I don’t always use a unilateral lift like the program says (also not an athlete, just a guy who wants to be big and strong). Sometimes I sub RDLs or rack pulls for higher reps instead of a quad-dominant unilateral lift if my ME lift is quad-dominant like front squats.

There are infinite things you can do with a template like this, the important thing is to find what works best for you.

6

Another thing I’d mention is that you shouldn’t get hung up on rotating every 3 weeks. I wouldn’t go longer than that, but don’t fear rotating more often than that. Anywhere from 1-3 will work. I usually go 2 weeks, sometimes 3 if I feel like I could add a few pounds or another rep the next week.

7

[quote]OneEye wrote:
Another thing I’d mention is that you shouldn’t get hung up on rotating every 3 weeks. I wouldn’t go longer than that, but don’t fear rotating more often than that. Anywhere from 1-3 will work. I usually go 2 weeks, sometimes 3 if I feel like I could add a few pounds or another rep the next week.[/quote]

This is key IMO…do the exercise until you can’t get stronger anymore in it for the rep range. Maybe it will be 3, 4 or 5 weeks. Also be prepared to have alternatives since sometimes you need flexibility with the training.

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Thanks for all the feedback, fellas. I really think I’m starting to get the picture now.

jtrinsey:

I like the idea of rotating between a full ROM movement and a partial movement in a given upper-body ME lift. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Also, I think that I would be most interested in improving my box squat at this point rather than a deadlift. I tossed the sumo deadlift out there because I thought that pulling style might complement the box squat and it seems to suit my body style the best (very short limbs, very long torso). While I want to focus on squatting for now, it might be nice to get the bar off my back every so often and pull some weight.

OneEye/sawadeekrob:

You make good points about not being chained to a 3-week rotation schedule. I picked that because that’s what Tate talked about for newcomers in his “8 Keys” series. But I would definitely cut out earlier if the gains stalled at that rep range or continue for another week or two if I felt like I had a lot more room to go. Good advice.

All:

Now that I more or less understand rotating ME exercises, is there a similar rhyme or reason for rotating assistance exercises?

It seems to me that certain exercises might always have a place in a program. For example, the GHR or reverse hyper seem like they are pretty much staples. Is it a matter of waiting until things stagnate and then changing up sets/reps/movements like Tate referred to in “8 Keys”?

9

If you are just starting to do max effort work then I would suggest doing triples instead of singles for a few months. The logic behind this is as follows. As “new trainee”, you won’t be able to recruit as nearly the same amount of muscle fibers doing singles as you would doing triples. As you get better this will change. Plus, if you miss the third rep at least you still got the first 2. If you really want to do singles then I suggest doing the first 2 weeks with triples and then the last week go for a single.

A 3 week rotation is fine to start out with. I would even suggest it if you are doing movements that you are not all the familiar with. When you start getting better at certain movements this won’t fly anymore, but don’t worry about this for now.

I would definitely keep free squats and plain old bench in your rotation, especially if you are lifting raw.

The guys at elitefts say that the one of the best upper ME rotations for raw lifters is

Bench
Incline
Floor press
2 or 1 Board

not unnecessarily in that order.

I have used this rotation for a about 2 months with a lot of success.

Assistance stuff:

You don’t need to rotate them per say, but you probably need to deload them if you don’t. You can’t just keep adding weight each week and not expect to burnout on them eventually. I either switch it up or deload about every 4 weeks with my assistance stuff. The time period varies between exercises. The only reason I picked 4 weeks is because I pretty consistently start to see a drop in progress at week 5. There is no magic number. This type of stuff you just need to try and figure out for yourself and it will change over time.

Some exercises you should pretty much do all the time because the are that good. GHR are one of them.

10

The logs are on Elite FTS. At the top of the page you will see the Q and A, followed by the logs. Make those two a daily read. You can also search the Q and A for Defranco’s answers and find a lot of answers to your questions.

One of the things that I forgot to ask and nobody else has asked you is how long have you been lifting and for what are you lifting? This will dictate how you use a template like WS4SB, or if you are even ready for that. I for one use a 5/3/1 on my ME excersices. I hit a max on 5 then the following week I hit a max triple and then finally a new single PR. I use this because I also train BJJ 1-3 times a week and maxing out all the time would probably kill me. It took me a while to figure this out but I did. I also train with a three day template, one for ME upper, one for ME lower and the third day I do RE/DE lower/RE Upper.

I also made the mistake of not doing my enrgy systems work and stretching and started to pay the price. I have now incorporated two running days with hard stretching and mobility work, some ART and chiro and feel much better.

11

[quote]Pemdas wrote:
If you are just starting to do max effort work then I would suggest doing triples instead of singles for a few months. The logic behind this is as follows. As “new trainee”, you won’t be able to recruit as nearly the same amount of muscle fibers doing singles as you would doing triples. As you get better this will change. Plus, if you miss the third rep at least you still got the first 2. If you really want to do singles then I suggest doing the first 2 weeks with triples and then the last week go for a single.

A 3 week rotation is fine to start out with. I would even suggest it if you are doing movements that you are not all the familiar with. When you start getting better at certain movements this won’t fly anymore, but don’t worry about this for now.

I would definitely keep free squats and plain old bench in your rotation, especially if you are lifting raw.

The guys at elitefts say that the one of the best upper ME rotations for raw lifters is

Bench
Incline
Floor press
2 or 1 Board

not unnecessarily in that order.

I have used this rotation for a about 2 months with a lot of success.

Assistance stuff:

You don’t need to rotate them per say, but you probably need to deload them if you don’t. You can’t just keep adding weight each week and not expect to burnout on them eventually. I either switch it up or deload about every 4 weeks with my assistance stuff. The time period varies between exercises. The only reason I picked 4 weeks is because I pretty consistently start to see a drop in progress at week 5. There is no magic number. This type of stuff you just need to try and figure out for yourself and it will change over time.

Some exercises you should pretty much do all the time because the are that good. GHR are one of them. [/quote]

Yeah, WS4SB III calls for ME sets in the 3-5 rep range. I wasn’t planning on doing singles for a while. I am definitely lifting raw, so I will certainly keep regular benches and probably free squats in the program.

A big thanks for the heads-up on those four exercises. Borrowing jtrinsey’s advice from above, I’ll probably go something like (1) bench, (2) floor press, (3) incline, (4) 1 or 2 board press, though I might switch the order of floor preses and board presses.

Regarding assistance exercises, I can clearly see some room for rotating things. For example, incline, flat, and floor dumbbell presses could all be rotated fairly easily. Same thing with rowing variations and vertical pulls. But like you say, I will probably want to keep the GHR–and probably reverse hyper–in place almost all the time. I guess it is just a matter of deloading for such exercises then? Can you give me an example of what you mean by “deloading.”

12

I do different things depending on how I feel, but I found this to work quite well.

I will use RDLs as my example because I don’t have GHR and I do these instead.

Cycle 1
Week 1 225x4x8
Week 2 235x4x8
Week 3 245x4x8
Week 4 255x4x8

Cycle 2
Week 1 235x4x8
Week 2 245x4x8
Week 3 255x4x8
Week 4 265x4x8

Another way I do it sometimes is this.

Week 1 225x4x6
Week 2 225x5x6
Week 3 225x4x8
Week 4 225x5x8

Week 1 235x4x6
Week 2 235x5x6
Week 3 235x4x8
Week 4 235x5x8

Another way you could do it this

Week 1 225x4x6
Week 2 235x4x6
Week 3 245x4x6
Week 4 255x4x6

Week 5 185x2x15
Week 6 185x3x15

Repeat with higher weight. I don’t think that the weight for the sets of 15 really matters, just pick something thats not too light, but not an all out effort.

To be clear this is what works for me. I have experiment a bit, so I know. You might be able to make consistent progress for 8 weeks who knows. Only experence will tell and it will probably change over time. I don’t like just going until I stop making progress. This tends to make me over trained a little and it is harder to recover from. You need to find the balance.

The bottom line is that at some point you need reduce the intensity or volume and then ramp it back up again trying beat your old records.

As side note. If you are feeling burnt out or stalled. The first thing to do is cut back accessory work. Accessory work in secondary. The main lift of the day is the most important.

13

[quote]BJJER wrote:
The logs are on Elite FTS. At the top of the page you will see the Q and A, followed by the logs. Make those two a daily read. You can also search the Q and A for Defranco’s answers and find a lot of answers to your questions.

One of the things that I forgot to ask and nobody else has asked you is how long have you been lifting and for what are you lifting? This will dictate how you use a template like WS4SB, or if you are even ready for that. I for one use a 5/3/1 on my ME excersices. I hit a max on 5 then the following week I hit a max triple and then finally a new single PR. I use this because I also train BJJ 1-3 times a week and maxing out all the time would probably kill me. It took me a while to figure this out but I did. I also train with a three day template, one for ME upper, one for ME lower and the third day I do RE/DE lower/RE Upper.

I also made the mistake of not doing my enrgy systems work and stretching and started to pay the price. I have now incorporated two running days with hard stretching and mobility work, some ART and chiro and feel much better. [/quote]

I actually found the logs last night and started printing them off. I’ll study them for patterns and themes regarding changes that are made to those routines.

Good question about my lifting history. The answer is quite complicated, unfortunately. I have been lifting on and off for about 5-6 years. When I was 19, I went from 132 lbs. to 158 lbs. on Max-OT in about 2 years. I was playing lacrosse at the time and got super burned out. I kept right on training 5-days per week during the season and did my own conditioning work as well.

I spent the next year doing “Hardgainer” type routines for lacrosse until my first major shoulder dislocation. I stayed away from the weights for about 8 months and then got back into the Hardgainer-type stuff for another 6 months. I then had another major dislocation in my senior season of lacrosse. After that, I pretty gave up weight training for several more months since my shoulder was jacked and was no longer playing lacrosse.

At that point, I became very interested in olympic lifting and started training for that with a coach. I basically did squats, presses, and pulls while learning the lifts with light weight. Within a few months of lifting weight again, I full squatted 330 lbs. for a single and front squatted 264 for a double at a BW of 149 lbs. My best clean was only 220. I disclocated my shoulder a third and final time doing heaving snatch balances one day and that was the end of my o-lifting career.

I had my shoulder reconstructed about a year later (a little over a year ago). I had a SLAP tear in the biceps tendon and my labrum was almost totally torn off. In addition, there was some chipping/cracking in the ball portion of the shoulder joint. Since then, I have pretty much been loafing around with little direction. I’ve mostly been messing with single-leg exercises and bodyweight stuff in my apartment a few times a week.

I have a second shoulder surgery scheduled for April 11 to clean out the garbage from the first surgery. The surgery will be very minor and the doctor says I’ll only be down for a couple weeks. He believes I’ll be back to lifting heavy by May. (He is a former linebacker for the Huskers, so he is all about lifting heavy.)

I am 25 now and a lawyer. My playing days are long behind me. At this point, my goals are to get strong. Stronger than I’ve ever been. I play flag football and basketball in local rec leagues and want to get strong, fast, and explosive for those. I also wouldn’t mind doing a powerlifting meet or two just for kicks.

In a way I am kind of starting over as a beginner, but I definitely know what its like to be under some (relatively) heavy iron. I probably have at least 3 years of total time squatting and deadlifting. I have been extremely overtrained before and know what it feels like. I also know what its like to undertrain (a la Hardgainer stuff). I’m looking for something in the middle with an emphasis on strength and power.

I definitely agree with you on the ART and tissue work. I am getting more and more into mobility stuff and stretching on the off days. I use a foam roller and I will also start regular ART when I get back to San Diego (no therapists here in Lincoln).

While I’m waiting for/recovering from surgery I want to map out my training and read up on the ME/DE/RE approach so that I can hit the ground running when I’m ready to go this summer. I’m also hoping to find some powerlifters here in Lincoln to train with for a few months while I get the hang of things.

14

If I were you I wouldn’t pay to close attention to the logs over there. The are full of good idea for new movements a such, but those guys are elite lifters. What they are doing most likely will not apply to you in terms how they set up there days and structure their accessory work…ect. The QandA section however is invaluable.

15

[quote]Pemdas wrote:
If I were you I wouldn’t pay to close attention to the logs over there. The are full of good idea for new movements a such, but those guys are elite lifters. What they are doing most likely will not apply to you in terms how they set up there days and structure their accessory work…ect. The QandA section however is invaluable. [/quote]

I was referring to the logs for DeFrancos where they chronicle the training of a few high school and college athletes. There is actually a log for a baseball player who just started training after coming off the same shoulder surgery as me. He appears to be new to this training style as well. I was not referring to the logs for the more established powerlifters. Sorry for the confusion.

Also, thanks for showing me those examples for manipulating your assistance exercises. A lot of good info there. I really appreciate it. This kind of stuff–sharing training ideas–is one of my favorite parts of strength training.

16

Ahh…ok then…my bad.

17

[quote]eic wrote:
All:

Now that I more or less understand rotating ME exercises, is there a similar rhyme or reason for rotating assistance exercises?

It seems to me that certain exercises might always have a place in a program. For example, the GHR or reverse hyper seem like they are pretty much staples. Is it a matter of waiting until things stagnate and then changing up sets/reps/movements like Tate referred to in “8 Keys”? [/quote]

The 8 keys is invaluable, however you need to walk the path…you get my point.

There are some valuable assistance exercises that I keep no matter what and only change the rep number whenever they stagnate. Remember their purpose is to help you with areas that are troublesome for you / or to prevent potential injuries down the road.

The longer you do the program, the better you will get at knowing which exercises lend themselves better for assistance and which ones don’t. One key is to milk the gains as long as possible. Do keep the deload in place 1 every 3 weeks or so since IMO this is key for long-term gains with this type of program.

18

I’d recommend buying the Westside Seminar DVD set and watching them several times through. There’s an unbelievable amount of information in those videos. Not all of it will be applicable, but you can still learn something even from the info you won’t personally use.

19

[quote]sawadeekrob wrote:
eic wrote:
All:

Now that I more or less understand rotating ME exercises, is there a similar rhyme or reason for rotating assistance exercises?

It seems to me that certain exercises might always have a place in a program. For example, the GHR or reverse hyper seem like they are pretty much staples. Is it a matter of waiting until things stagnate and then changing up sets/reps/movements like Tate referred to in “8 Keys”?

The 8 keys is invaluable, however you need to walk the path…you get my point.

There are some valuable assistance exercises that I keep no matter what and only change the rep number whenever they stagnate. Remember their purpose is to help you with areas that are troublesome for you / or to prevent potential injuries down the road.

The longer you do the program, the better you will get at knowing which exercises lend themselves better for assistance and which ones don’t. One key is to milk the gains as long as possible. Do keep the deload in place 1 every 3 weeks or so since IMO this is key for long-term gains with this type of program.[/quote]

Thanks, sawadeekrob. I think you guys are right; the only way to know is to try. But I did want to have a rudimentary understanding of the principles at hand so I know what to look for. All you dudes have helped with that, and I appreciate it.

When you say “deload” I think you are referring to assistance exercises, correct? If so, that brings me to another question: Do you ever intentionally take time off on the ME exercises, too? Say a week off every couple months or something like that?

20

[quote]OneEye wrote:
I’d recommend buying the Westside Seminar DVD set and watching them several times through. There’s an unbelievable amount of information in those videos. Not all of it will be applicable, but you can still learn something even from the info you won’t personally use.[/quote]

Thanks for the tip. Money is super tight right now, but I’m putting together a list of things to buy as finances allow. I’ll definitely put that one on the list.