Wrestling or Judo for Law enforcement

It occurs to me that we haven’t heard anything back from the OP in quite a while…

In any case, and to reiterate what Sento said earlier…find an art that has you going full speed, or at least close to full speed, with your opponent. Judo, BJJ, boxing and wrestling all fit that bill. Anything that gets you in a hard, physical struggle with a live opponent is going to be a good art for LEO work.

It’s more about the experience of actually struggling with another person than the actual art itself.

Hey guys,

Thanks for the input from everyone who has offered sound suggestions and real world experience to the thread.

Since I posted this thread, I have had a chance to train more (muay thai, judo, and boxing). Although some would suggest that I situate myself in one area first, I feel that the unpredictability of law enforcement (in terms of use of force situations) requires that I train in these arts. I am really enjoying myself and having a blast thus far with all three disciplines.

Because of my schedule, I am dedicating 3-4 days to muay thai, 3 days to boxing, and 2 days to judo. I wish I could add in more judo but the class schedules conflict with my work schedule. A group of good guys at the judo club I go to.

As for my judo club, class are structured around drilling technique approximately 15-20 minutes and then 8 rounds of randori and 6 rounds of newaza. I usually do about 3 to 4 rounds of randori and 3 rounds of newaza.

Thanks again to those who have contributed to this thread.

Im a little late the party here.
And I am certainly not a LEO or military or anything even close.

But I do live in your area- and played judo for close 20 years.
wrestling too.

can I ask where your are going for judo there are some good clubs in NYC
and in the pat few year a multitude of good to excellent BJJ clubs.
and some of them if you ask around- will have a class for LEO types
and they are private to LE only for the most part.

Wrestling- while Its something I did for years too- might not suit what you need
All the different styles of grappling- are really mastered thru repetition.

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
It occurs to me that we haven’t heard anything back from the OP in quite a while…

In any case, and to reiterate what Sento said earlier…find an art that has you going full speed, or at least close to full speed, with your opponent. Judo, BJJ, boxing and wrestling all fit that bill. Anything that gets you in a hard, physical struggle with a live opponent is going to be a good art for LEO work.

It’s more about the experience of actually struggling with another person than the actual art itself. [/quote]

Listen up.

If you keep being rational like that we are never going to get a good old fashioned, style vs style, purse swinging, hair pulling cat fight going. This had the potential to be epic.

Focusing on the important points is just going to lead us to the realization that constant self improvement, and SELF CRITICISM is way more fruitful than arguing on the internet. And if we go down that rabbit hole, we have to train. And that is like, way, WAY much harder than typing. (At least now that my finger is mostly healed up.)

Regards,

Robert A

fearnloathingnyc,

Sounds like you are doing a hell of a lot to prepare/make yourself better. You should be commended for that.

There are a couple of other threads with topics that might be of interest.

Both the “Bad Ideas” thread and the Oregon shooting might be worth considering as idaho, mapwhap, and some others tend to have great insights. Both are on the front page.

Also here is a link to an older thread about the classic “Surviving Edged Weapons” video.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Robert A wrote:
fearnloathingnyc,

Sounds like you are doing a hell of a lot to prepare/make yourself better. You should be commended for that.

There are a couple of other threads with topics that might be of interest.

Both the “Bad Ideas” thread and the Oregon shooting might be worth considering as idaho, mapwhap, and some others tend to have great insights. Both are on the front page.

Also here is a link to an older thread about the classic “Surviving Edged Weapons” video.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

I agree. He asked for advice, got it, and applied it. That’s pretty rare on an internet forum.

Well done, fearnloathingnyc.

If you are a novice LEO you have probably noticed that you are never alone when you are dealing with a suspect. If you have been involved with a resisting suspect and you have a partner or multiple units checking by it just turns into a gang bang for the suspect. He gets taken down by sheer weight. They actually have nearly zero chance of hurthing anyone when there is 200+ pounds of COP on each arm and leg and one or two on their back and neck.

After your first year passes and you start going on patrol by yourself is when you might get to experience a one on one fight. In that situation your martial arts training will certainly be an advantage to you, but being POWER LIFTER STRONG and having an unfailing determination to win will be much more important. Keep lifting!

^^

I don’t think anyone was saying not to lift…after all, we are on a weight training website. I would say the weight training and the martial arts training would go hand in hand.

As for the first part about being a novice LEO never being alone…surely you know that isn’t the case everywhere. That may be the case in YOUR jurisdiction, but that is hardly a rule nationwide. I was running calls by myself well inside of 6 months, and started working part time / side jobs then, too. And you are almost ALWAYS alone on those.

So, no. You don’t always have backup your first year out.

As for being…how did you put it…“POWER LIFTER STRONG”…absolutely be as strong as you can be. But a little technique goes a long way in a fight. I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, but bad guys lift weights too. And there is always someone out there who is bigger / stronger / faster than you.

Every advantage helps in a fight…not just being POWER LIFTER STRONG.

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I don’t think anyone was saying not to lift…after all, we are on a weight training website. I would say the weight training and the martial arts training would go hand in hand…

As for being…how did you put it…“POWER LIFTER STRONG”…absolutely be as strong as you can be. But a little technique goes a long way in a fight. I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, but bad guys lift weights too. And there is always someone out there who is bigger / stronger / faster than you.

Every advantage helps in a fight…not just being POWER LIFTER STRONG.[/quote]

I cannot speak to the LEO specific comments, but I strongly agree with the above. Well said mapwhap.

Regards,

Robert A

I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.

[quote]JWolfe wrote:
I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.[/quote]

In a sport fight this is true and from a LEO perspective being able to control someone to cuff them is a very useful skill. But holding someone down in a serious fight, especially one with a possibility of multiples or weapons does not spell victory.

Also, Judo is absolutely useful on the ground.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]JWolfe wrote:
I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.[/quote]

In a sport fight this is true and from a LEO perspective being able to control someone to cuff them is a very useful skill. But holding someone down in a serious fight, especially one with a possibility of multiples or weapons does not spell victory.

Also, Judo is absolutely useful on the ground.[/quote]

Sento: I was just going to reply to his comment , but, you stated exactly what I wanted to say:))

[quote]JWolfe wrote:
I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.[/quote]

Judo ground work is undervalued merely because it can’t compete against BJJ, which is a more “complete”.

But you’d be silly to claim that judo is an entirely stand-up art.

I still currently work as an LEO and have spent almost half my life in the martial arts before I had to stop due to medical reasons.

In my opinion, Judo has been very useful to me in my LE career. Though strikes have their place (a good knee or low kick to the right spot can easily drop an unconditioned person, for example) most of the time when you go hands on with someone you’re arresting it’s going to end up being a grappling match on your feet initially. Judo teaches you proper footwork and maintaining your balance, which is important and gives you a huge advantage over the average person on the street who knows zilch about fighting. The sweeps and throws are very useful for taking a suspect to the ground while keeping you in a dominant position, and if it does go to the ground you have enough training to restrain the suspect while waiting for backup or to end the fight then and there if need be. A good throw can end the fight quickly as well - I’ve had aggressive suspects give up after getting thrown onto the ground without much of a fight afterwards.

In regards to single and double legs, they are in the Judo curriculum but if you get a school that focuses solely on Judo competitions they may not cover them much as now they’re illegal in Judo competitions (which is idiotic but that’s for another discussion). You’ll get some people arguing that people aren’t wearing a Judo gi so the throws aren’t as effective, but here in PA it’s cold 9 months out of the year so there’s always some kind of grip to get on someone during a fight if you’re willing to improvise.

A few of my favorite Judo techniques I’ve found work well on patrol:

Waki gatame: http://www.judo-tao.com/gokyo/KATAME-WAZA/KANSETSU-WAZA/Waki-gatame.gif
Osoto gari: http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/sotogari.gif
Sasae tsurikomi ashi: http://www.judo-tao.com/gokyo/NAGE-WAZA/ASHI-WAZA/Sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi.gif
Kouchi gari: http://mixedmartialartsintowsonmaryland.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ko-Uchi-Gari.jpg
Koshi guruma: http://www.judo-tao.com/gokyo/NAGE-WAZA/KOSHI-WAZA/Koshi-guruma.gif

[quote]BushcraftAl wrote:
You’ll get some people arguing that people aren’t wearing a Judo gi so the throws aren’t as effective,
[/quote]

Those people are unimaginative. The foundation of judo throws is, as you stated, within your understanding of balance, footwork, and leverage. A wrist is just as easy to grab as the sleeves of a gi, and there are many ways to gain and apply leverage than just a grip on a lapel. Your basic, run of the mill hip throw is an indication of this.

No need for fancy stuff. Just grab, get them off balance and abuse the shit out of the situation.

The best judoka I sparred against, 3rd degree black belt from Japan, did basically this. Other black belts I’ve sparred against from the U.S. utilized violence to get their way; not this guy. As soon as he got a grip, he found an imbalance and took advantage of it. Bam. On the floor. No force whatsoever.

That’s why I like judo. The simplicity but utter effectiveness of it appeals a lot to me. I aspire to be as good as him one day, but I doubt it’ll ever happen unless I actually get my ass outside of the U.S. and train elsewhere.

At face value it would seem like Sambo would be your best bet but it’s extremely rare in America.

If you can afford Judo and wrestling I think both would work well. There should be some degree of spillover.

Aside from leg takedowns, the debate boils down to GI vs No-Gi throws. True the person you are taking down probably won’t be wearing a GI, but he will probably have clothes on and many of the grips can be used on clothing, but not all.

[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:
At face value it would seem like Sambo would be your best bet but it’s extremely rare in America.

If you can afford Judo and wrestling I think both would work well. There should be some degree of spillover.

Aside from leg takedowns, the debate boils down to GI vs No-Gi throws. True the person you are taking down probably won’t be wearing a GI, but he will probably have clothes on and many of the grips can be used on clothing, but not all. [/quote]

It also depends on where you live (what climate) and the time of year. If you were a beat cop on South Beach in the summer time there is a very good chance that you will encounter people without shirts or with tight tank tops on so you would have to rely more on No-Gi types of controls; whereas if you were a cop in Fargo North Dakota there is a very good chance that most of the people you’d encounter would have at least shirts if not jackets on and Gi stuff would work well.

All it takes is a little training without a jacket and you can pull off most Judo throws just fine.

For example, take two basic throws - osoto gari and sasae tsurikomi ashi. First GIF shows the traditional Judo method, second GIF shows the same throw being used in an MMA match.

http://www.slc-bockum-hoevel.de/judo/seiten/wuerfe/o_soto_gari.gif


[quote]BushcraftAl wrote:
All it takes is a little training without a jacket and you can pull off most Judo throws just fine.

For example, take two basic throws - osoto gari and sasae tsurikomi ashi. First GIF shows the traditional Judo method, second GIF shows the same throw being used in an MMA match.

http://www.slc-bockum-hoevel.de/judo/seiten/wuerfe/o_soto_gari.gif


http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/902241/3_medium.gif[/quote]

Thanks for the gifts, those are good.

Absolutely. That is a very slick Osoto in that MMA gif, but there are simpler and higher percentage adaptations that can be done without a Gi as well.