Wow! EGCG and Myostatin

Nakae Y, Histochemistry and Cell Biology, 2008.

I got the info above from the second post.

This is as far as i’ve got from now. Your help would be appreciated as i am not really a scientist. I am just curious as yourself.

EGCG has also been shown to reduce T levels:

Green tea polyphenols, especially the catechin, (-)-epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), have been proposed as a cancer chemopreventative based on a variety of laboratory studies. For clear assessment of the possible physiological effects of green tea consumption, we injected pure green tea catechins ip into rats and studied their acute effects on endocrine systems. We found that EGCG, but not related catechins, significantly reduced food intake; body weight; blood levels of testosterone, estradiol, leptin, insulin, insulin-like growth factor I, LH, glucose, cholesterol, and triglyceride; as well as growth of the prostate, uterus, and ovary. Similar effects were observed in lean and obese male Zucker rats, suggesting that the effect of EGCG was independent of an intact leptin receptor.

EGCG may interact specifically with a component of a leptin-independent appetite control pathway. Endocrine changes induced by parenteral administration of EGCG may relate to the observed growth inhibition and regression of human prostate and breast tumors in athymic mice treated with EGCG as well as play a role in the mechanism by which EGCG inhibits cancer initiation and promotion in various animal models of cancer.

One study showed they were reduced 70%. One could argue that A) these were extremely high doses, and B) these coincided with reduced food intake. But if a high amount reduces testosterone levels by 70%, I could see a low dose reducing them by a small amount. Just something to think about when considering EGCG.

what i’ve got from this thread:
ecgc helps promote fast loss, but decreases testosterone.
!!! what to do!
i take green tea extract, 42mg caffeine and 50% (300 i think) ecgc

[quote]Thomas Gabriel wrote:
One study showed they were reduced 70%. One could argue that A) these were extremely high doses, and B) these coincided with reduced food intake. But if a high amount reduces testosterone levels by 70%, I could see a low dose reducing them by a small amount. Just something to think about when considering EGCG. [/quote]

Another study found the reverse: elevated T levels and increased inhibition of aromatase:
Inhibition of aromatase activity by green tea extract catechins and their endocrinological effects of oral administration in rats - PubMed?

ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.

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[quote]etaco wrote:
Since I doubt we will see much published research on the effects on normal subjects beyond this it would be interesting to see if the dosing threshold is higher for normals or more generally why they didnt show changes in this study. So if some people want to help…

Too bad we can’t get together amateur clinical trials. I’d even break out my stats package for it.

If 5mg/kg was the dosage in mice it should be considerably lower in humans due to the metabolic differences I believe. Even at that dosage and assuming ~20% oral bioavailability it should be reasonably doable if anyone wants to try.

It would be useful before embarking to find the side effects (obviously) of that range and the half life of the relevant constituents and metabolites.

[edit]
Well there goes that with the adjusted figures.[/quote]

I cannot get hold of any of the extract at the moment because i’ve not got no useable credit card. Beyond a century sell a 50 percent EGCg green tea extract. 50 grams costs 7.50 dollars.

That doesn’t seem too pricey, taking 8 grams a day with potential muscle growth and fat loss. Someone should try it.

If anyone does try it remember it absorbs better when taken with something citric and can also be absorbed through the mouth lining.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Why doesn’t someone try it on their dog? Any takers?[/quote]

By the looks of his avatar, Big Balls already has.

[quote]big balls wrote:
etaco wrote:
Since I doubt we will see much published research on the effects on normal subjects beyond this it would be interesting to see if the dosing threshold is higher for normals or more generally why they didnt show changes in this study. So if some people want to help…

Too bad we can’t get together amateur clinical trials. I’d even break out my stats package for it.

If 5mg/kg was the dosage in mice it should be considerably lower in humans due to the metabolic differences I believe. Even at that dosage and assuming ~20% oral bioavailability it should be reasonably doable if anyone wants to try.

It would be useful before embarking to find the side effects (obviously) of that range and the half life of the relevant constituents and metabolites.

[edit]
Well there goes that with the adjusted figures.

I cannot get hold of any of the extract at the moment because i’ve not got no useable credit card. Beyond a century sell a 50 percent EGCg green tea extract. 50 grams costs 7.50 dollars.

That doesn’t seem too pricey, taking 8 grams a day with potential muscle growth and fat loss. Someone should try it.

If anyone does try it remember it absorbs better when taken with something citric and can also be absorbed through the mouth lining.[/quote]

Can I get a link to this product? 8g total or 8g of ECGC per day? Either way thats alot of green tea extract.

It’s 50 grams of ‘green tea 95 percent’. Thats 95 percent polyphenols but only 50 percent egcg.

You find it on ‘beyond a century’. Just go to herbals under the letter G scroll down and you’ll find it. I worked out the quantities a while ago based on a 5 percent absorption rate.

If someone mega doses around those levels for say 4-6 weeks it would be interesting to see results.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
what i’ve got from this thread:
ecgc helps promote fast loss, but decreases testosterone.
!!! what to do!
i take green tea extract, 42mg caffeine and 50% (300 i think) ecgc[/quote]

What I’ve gotten from this thread is that studies still don’t tell us very much.

I found this study, but know nothing about the journal/company. But the study on cystoseira canariensis looks interesting:

http://www.remedium.ru/eng/clinical/detail.php?ID=3408

So i have been doing some research on myostatin inhibition today, this is what i’ve got:

Follistatin as most would know is the primary antagonist for myostatin and the mice genetically altered to overproduce this protein grew 200-300 percent larger muscles than normal mice.

Injection of human follistatin would be a viable way of majorly inhibiting myostatin if it were not so expensive.

However, this is what i found today: YOU CAN INCREASE FOLLISTATIN NATURALLY through food based HDAC inhibitors.
These are sulforaphane from broccoli, diallyl disulphide from garlic and butyrate from butter.

Also forskolin is also supposed to increase secretion of follistatin through activation of the cAMP pathway.

The substances from both broccoli and garlic are activated when they are damaged as in chewed.

So could chewing broccoli and garlic increase muscle size?

So for serious muscle building i want a real and genuine myostatin inhibitor. Why search further, fraction c, biotests former supplement ingredient in vitro binds myostatin perfectly.

The problem is it apparently doesnn’t absorb very well into the blood stream. Problem solved. Absorb it through your mouth lining, like the ecgc can.

So i am swilling in my mouth fraction c from a supplement i bought in the past. Simple, i swirl it, in and around my mouth for up to half an hour to get an effect.

My brother says he notices a difference already, i’ve only been taking the supplement for three days!

Where did you get fraction c from?

[quote]big balls wrote:
So for serious muscle building i want a real and genuine myostatin inhibitor. Why search further, fraction c, biotests former supplement ingredient in vitro binds myostatin perfectly.

The problem is it apparently doesnn’t absorb very well into the blood stream. Problem solved. Absorb it through your mouth lining, like the ecgc can.

So i am swilling in my mouth fraction c from a supplement i bought in the past. Simple, i swirl it, in and around my mouth for up to half an hour to get an effect.

My brother says he notices a difference already, i’ve only been taking the supplement for three days![/quote]

Get the hell outta here…;p

[quote]LiftSmart wrote:
Where did you get fraction c from?[/quote]

Myostim by cytodyne. It is capped but you can easily open the caps. What i’ve been doing is pouring a little bit of the powder on my tongue at a time. I think its absorbing i feel a difference.

I do three caps a day spaced evenly apart. Problem is i only have a few days worth left as i’ve used the other caps before.

I didn’t try this method though.

be warned that green tea in its natural form can also down regulate sex hormones. I take what amounts to about 400 mg of EGCG a day, nowhere near the amount suggested in this study, and I’m convinced I feel more energetic, but not much else. Somebody should expirement with this on some university athletes or something. give them a bunch of the extract and make them drink nothing but green tea instead of water during training.

Update:

Sorry the product i’m using is myostat from cytodyne, not myostim.

Progress has been good as i’ feeling a lot harder and look more muscular. I haven’t been eating much but my brother says i look a lot more defined and bigger than ever.

[quote]big balls wrote:
Update:

Sorry the product i’m using is myostat from cytodyne, not myostim.

Progress has been good as i’ feeling a lot harder and look more muscular. I haven’t been eating much but my brother says i look a lot more defined and bigger than ever.[/quote]

Keep a picture + weight log. This is very interesting.

[quote]Schmazz wrote:
yorik wrote:

Read up on the history of Biotest supplements and you might be bummed. I’m not sure anymore why they discontinued it.

Well… because it didn’t work. That seems to be the general consensus.[/quote]

They actually produced a study showing Myostatin did work. My own personal experience was my use of it coincided with my enjoying some of my best muscularity ever. I wasn’t just muscular but I was also lean.

I was using it in conjunction with cycles of Mag10 so it might have been just the Mag10 but subsequent use of MAG-10 at much higher doses along with HOT-ROX hasn’t quite yielded the same results in leanness. It also seemed like my muslces were a little more elastic and I could stretch easier.

The impression I got from looking at who said it didn’t do anything was the guys who complained it didn’t work also happened to be pretty damn big and muscular already. So it’s not like they were in a position to see a change.

All I know is before I used Myostat I used to struggle with the heaviest weights I could mange to get above 140. After I haven’t been below 140 even without lifting. I gave some that I had laying around a try recently and again I noticed I leaned out. So I am inclined to think it may actually have done something. I was sad to see it go.

I think the real problem was that Biotest was marketing Myostat along with Pinnacle and the Pinnacle guys were douchebags who were making claims that they should not have been making.

They also pulled the plug just after there was an article on the news about myostatin inhibitors where someone raised the concern that along with skeletal muscle they may also cause the growth of cardiac muscle.

[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
That dog looks like it could take on a fucking lion, I want one.[/quote]

You should have seen how my roommates cat responded to androsol.