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Wow! Adex Over Responder?


#1

I would have put this in my original thread but last time I did I think it got lost in the shuffle, and I'd love some advice on this.

Best labs to date since starting are (shortened to focus just on Test/Estradiol):

Test dose was .25 mg (200 mg/ml) E3D; Adex 6 drops EOD ( I should also mention I take HCG 250 IU's EOD)

3-15-2011

Total - 708 (ng/dl 241-827) Up from 417 starting
SHBG - 29 (NMOL/L 13-71) Down from 32
Free Test - 17.0 (ng/dl 6.0 - 27.0) Up from 8.7
E2 - 24 (pg/ml </ = 63)

Raised dose to .33mg E3D based on doc wanting Free test on upper end of range. Kept in the 250 IU's EOD of HCG. I also went from 6 drops Adex EOD to 8 (I'm thinking this was the culprit). Noticed retaining of water, tougher time getting erections, weaker ejactulation, low desire to train, brain fog and higher BP.I also feel hot all the time with a red face.

4-20-2011

A.M. Cortisol level - 14 (ug/dl 7-25)

Total - 507 (ng/dl 241-827) Down 200!
SHBG - 30 (NMOL/L 13-71) Up 1
Free Test - 11.3 (ng/dl 6.0 - 27.0) Down 5.7!
E2 - 17 (pg/ml </ = 63)

So wow, Testosterone took a massive tank in just a month. I read that Thyroid goes up when E2 is too low which would explain feeling hot and the red face? Didn't get that checked this time.

So my questions are:

Would the E2 dropping below 22 and 7 points lower than my 24 cause the Testosterone to drop like that? Even though I raised the dose?

And...what to do now if so or otherwise? Spend a week of clearing? Or just lower dose gradually.

Also, aside from low E2 what else could be blocking my Free T from raising despite a higher dose?

Thanks for any input!


#2

Ah..sorry my bad! Did I mention brain fog?

First post edited with E2 amounts.


#3

Edit: Removed my question in response to OP editing post with E2 ranges

Your adex dose is not going to affect your Free T levels while on TRT. It will obviously affect your Free T, but since Total and Free fell, I would guess its probably an effect of lab timing...

You didn't mention when you got your lab tests (for botH) in relation to your last shot of T

???

As for adex, I would back off for a week and refire at a lower dose...


#4

Again sorry, E2 levels now added in the post, I always have them test it when testing for Test levels. All Labs were done exactly the same time, in the morning on the day of my Test shot but before the shot.

Thanks much!


#5

You are injecting ml's not mg's

Did you go to a new vial? New on is 200mg/ml? Results are consistent with 100mg/ml.

Low E2 will not lower T.

Changed sources of adex or lot number? Settled out and dropper picking up higher dose?
DO NOT IDENTIFY YOUR SOURCE IN ANY FORUM POSTS.

How long have you been on TRT?

Same lab timing after prior injection?

Your original post is here: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/2_weeks_in_to_trt_sore_nipples

You do not know how to find that?

Any thyroid data? Yes, in your old post.

Check waking body temp and during the day, let us know.
Is your body temperature normal when you feel hot?

What has been done about thyroid or iodine intake?

Do you hear your pulse in your ear?

Check your BP, many pharmacies have an automated machine.

CBC might show hematocrit up.

Some feel warm with TRT as metabolism picks up. But not red in the face.

Reduce adex dose by a factor of 17/22


#6

what were your symptoms on your 3/15 blood test?

did the doctor change your dose base on your symptoms or simply because he wanted to chase a higher number?

have you ever tested your Thyroid?


#7

sigh... multiple threads are not fun...

so you have horrible cortisol which means your system dumps any excess T to E2 and unresolved thyroid issues to boot.


#8

Answers below are unquoted:

"Did you go to a new vial? New on is 200mg/ml? Results are consistent with 100mg/ml."

My first vial was actually 200mg/ ML, and this is my 1st refill (so yes new vial) and it is the same dose.

"Changed sources of adex or lot number? Settled out and dropper picking up higher dose?
DO NOT IDENTIFY YOUR SOURCE IN ANY FORUM POSTS."

No new source, in fact it's the same bottle I've been using all along which got my E2 from in the 40's down to 24. There appears to be no settling at all, the difference is I did raise from 6-8 drops when I raised the test dose.

"How long have you been on TRT?"

Since January 10th, 2011

"Same lab timing after prior injection?"

Yes, exact same. Right before my shot of T.

Your original post is here: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/2_weeks_in_to_trt_sore_nipples

"Any thyroid data? Yes, in your old post."

My apologies for starting a new thread, again I did post in my old one and it seemed like it was up there for just a short while and then on the 2nd page again. I see the confusion this causes.

"Check waking body temp and during the day, let us know."

Will Start tomorrow. Does this need to be under the arm or is oral OK?

"Is your body temperature normal when you feel hot?"

I will get this data tomorrow

"What has been done about thyroid or iodine intake?"

Celtic Sea Salt on all foods, Started Iodoral tabs but since I was flushed and hot I wasn't sure about continuing. Can easily start up again if advised.

"Do you hear your pulse in your ear?"

While lying down...YES!

"Check your BP, many pharmacies have an automated machine."

I have a cuff at home, it's been running mid 130's/low 90's to high 130's/low 90's.

"CBC might show hematocrit up."

Time to retest?

"Some feel warm with TRT as metabolism picks up. But not red in the face.
Reduce adex dose by a factor of 17/22"

OK, now I know the correct dose. Should I clear a week with none or just reduce starting next dose?

Thanks again for everyone's help!


#9

Honestly there were no symptoms on 3/15 other than feeling far better than I ever had. All previous stress symptoms and even bad digestion had gone away. I requested the test to see where my E2 specifically was to make sure my Adex dose was right.

Yes, the doc wanted to see a higher Free T number and well, quite honestly so did I. Having seen such improvement, I guess you really don't know what the sweet spot is going by "feeling", until you've passed it. On top of that my free T was really still only in the middle of the range and he likes to see people at the upper end or even beyond.

Thyroid yes, numbers are in a previous post.


#10

Again as stated above to KSman I apologize for the multiple threads.

As for the cortisol, I retested the 8 A.M. and it came back 14. After seeing your last post to me regarding this and 15-20 being ideal I thought that was pretty good, particularly considering the first test said 5.

I'll be getting the thyroid checked again, still wondering if I should add back Iodoral and wait a few weeks for the test. I'm sure the body temp checks I'll be performing over the next few days will also tell more.

Honestly since the other thread post things have been going fantastic (up to now, which still is better than when I started). My stress is way down (almost never get irritated anymore), sleep has been incredible, and I've put on about 15 lbs of muscle and lost 10 lbs of fat. Sex drive has been the best it's ever been. I still need to get much leaner but I've had so much darn fun putting on the muscle that I haven't worried about it. I will now.

I do appreciate everyone's help and will continue to follow the advice of you guys as I dial this in. Really, if it wasn't for you guys and these threads and I just simply listened to everything my doc told me to do I'd be about 1000 times worse off. He told me today he thought 50 E2 levels were OK.


#11

chase symptom improvement, not lab numbers. we are all different genetically so what works for most may not work for you.


#12

Got it...thanks!


#13

Morning body temp the last two days, as well as midday yesterday:

Yesterday a.m. - 95.8
Today - 95.2

Midday yesterday - 96.8

Basically....crap. With morning cortisol at 14, would going on Iodoral at 4 tabs/D be worth a shot or should I go for Armour?

Thanks


#14

IF your thyroid antibody tests were negative, then iodoral might help (you can also test for Iodine levels with a blood test). I didn't start on iodine until I had a blood test showing I was at the bottom of the range.

IF your TSH, free T3, etc. all look terrible then you may need Armour for the short term until your system can pick up the slack.

increasing free T3 will place additional demands on your cortisol.