T Nation

Would This Be Overtraining?

I am not currently working, and i am really really struggling to take my off days - not just that, but i am training twice a day a couple of days a week too…

I will give you a sample micro, plus FYI my diet is up - eating well, v. high protein (1.25-1.5glb/bw), and more carbs. I eat approx. 3500kcal-3800kcal.
5’8" and 180lbs and climbing. Cypionate 500mg a week, week 2.5

so the plan:

Day 1- AM legs (Breathing on all presses)15 sets, 6 sets Calf.
PM- Chest 9 Sets and BI 6 sets.

Day 2- Delts 12 sets and Traps 9 sets and calves 3 sets.

Day 3- AM Chest 12 sets and Bi 9 sets and forearm 3 sets
PM- Legs (breathing)10 sets and calves 3-6 sets.

Day 4- Back 15 sets and Tri 9 sets. Grip work.

Day 5- OFF (Posing routine work)

I use Rest/Pause on most of the last working sets, or a drop set (always an intensity technique on last working set). For ALL squats, leg presses, and Hacks i do breathing sets on all sets-fucking love it!

So as you can see… alot of training. Now i know i can handle the volume/workload for the straight 4 day split, and repeat that split every 5 days without OT, i am not working remember, and i have nothing else going on, (no going out - just training and eating and sleeping, and that has been so-apart for the odd client-for the past 6 months!! put on 35lbs! it’s fucking great! everyone - quit now!!).

But as you can see i am bringing up my chest, Biceps and Legs… and it is working too. Really. I am not currently losing strength, i am gaining it. I am gaining weight (cyp helps) etc…
and those 3 bodyparts are all improving noticeably.
Now, the question at hand…

AM I OVERTRAINING? I will force a day off every Day 5, then rinse and repeat. I know i should be OT, but i really don’t feel like i am. I do not train a bodypart again if i have DOMS (that always gives me an injury), and if i become un-motivated i have a rest day.
Also, you should know, i do like to push the boundaries of my recovery slightly above and beyond what i can do, so i do OT fairly regularly, to the point of loss of motivation and a flat look to my muscle bellies, just to back right off and enjoy the supercompensation. This works for me and i have done it periodically and successfully for about 6 months now. with good results.

Should/could i keep this up until i present symptoms of overtraining, (which i feel i am tuned in to recognise due to my style of overload) then move to a low volume (DC i was thinking) type of workout? Or do you think i could keep this up longer term? I know it is a kinda subjective question, depending on my personal recovery ability, but this is the plan, and i wanted to run it by some of the guys who have seen this kind of total load successfully implemented, either with yourselves or with clients, and what you think is going on? A slow build up to overtraining, OR just a large amount of sustainable, hard work?

Joe

no - not overtraining; from your post you seem to know your body’s limitations and when overtraining is setting in or has the potential of setting in…

Your workout is working and you are still progressing; so i would keep doing it.

I think you can continue what your doing until you “feel” overtraining setting in… i cant say when or even if overtaining will set in; but if you feel it starting to wave its ugly head, then maybe take a couple of weeks to “deload” and then restart but when you restart maybe do a rep range that was opposite to what you were doing prior to your deload; in other words if you were going heavy (ie:6 reps or less) maybe go to 12 reps for a month or 2 then go to a deload again and then go back to heavy… this a form of periodization… you seem advance enough to handle periodization and periodization is key to prevent overtraining as well as continue making gains…

Thanks, i do periodize too… i just kinda EXPECTED to be overtraining! It is alot of work, but i love training and the more i can and still get results, the better IMO!

Thanks for the advice!

[quote]Joe Brook wrote:
Thanks, i do periodize too… i just kinda EXPECTED to be overtraining! It is alot of work, but i love training and the more i can and still get results, the better IMO!

Thanks for the advice![/quote]

me to… i am actually doing a workout program similar to you; its a 4 day split and i am working out twice a day (making it a 2 day split in some cases… (i actually am going to start doing a 5 day split as i feel i can up my volume).

I really like workingout twice a day… i find also with this split i need to keep my workouts session not to long per session when doing twice a day. i am considering going to a 5 day split (2.5 day split if doing twice a day to up the volume even more. While i could stay with the 4 day split and just add more sets, my instinct is that i am probably at my limits as far time spent per workout session for twice a day; however, by going to a 5 day split i can still increase my volume while keeping my workout sessions reasonable in length.

I to also worry about overtraining; but when i feel it “starting” i replace my workout split with a couple sessions of low intensity running instead of sessions of lifting. This seems to be working for now…

Joe, you know your limits. Don’t go past them, and you won’t overtrain.

Yes, that is very similar to me innit.

Good to know someone designs their programs with the same things in mind!

I always work my whole body at least 2x a week… that might be a 2way split over 6 days for 3x a week, or a 3 day split and a 2 day split done in the same week.
I tend to do twice a day if i go in the morning (25 sets avg.) and feel ready to go again by 5pm… its a spontaneous(sp?) thing!

Joe

Am I the only one who thinks that unless you are a professional or olympic athlete that the word “overtraining” is overused.

If you want to be better than average, you have to train more, harder and smarter than average.

I think that worrying about overtraining just limits a person.

A couple things to consider.

  1. Every individual has their own individual work capacity/recovery abilities. You may have just gotten lucky and inherited good recovery abilities and work capacity. So, for you this might not be overtraining.

  2. I think the fact that you are not working is also a big factor. The body/recovery systems/CNS has a limited ability to deal with stress. That stress can come in the form of physical stress or mental/emotional stress from work/family issues/etc…

Most people who train must deal with both types of stress and as a result cannot handle as much physical stress as you are currently putting yourself through. But, since you only have to deal with physical stress you are able to handle more of it.

At least that’s my understanding/experience.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
A couple things to consider.

  1. Every individual has their own individual work capacity/recovery abilities. You may have just gotten lucky and inherited good recovery abilities and work capacity. So, for you this might not be overtraining.

  2. I think the fact that you are not working is also a big factor. The body/recovery systems/CNS has a limited ability to deal with stress. That stress can come in the form of physical stress or mental/emotional stress from work/family issues/etc…

Most people who train must deal with both types of stress and as a result cannot handle as much physical stress as you are currently putting yourself through. But, since you only have to deal with physical stress you are able to handle more of it.

At least that’s my understanding/experience.[/quote]

I agree especially with not working allowing better recovery time. I currently have more time on my hands as i do not have to go to work everyday so i can workout twice a day. I work in construction and when i am working i can feel the effects of overtraining setting in much more quickly even though i workingout only once a day. However, when i am not working , i find it quite easy to do two workouts a day and not feel the effects of overtaining. For some reason though, when i am working and only working out once a day, overtraining becomes much more of a problem for me (something i need to watch even more closely).

Whats up bud? Here is my .02

[quote]Joe Brook wrote:
I am not currently working, and i am really really struggling to take my off days - not just that, but i am training twice a day a couple of days a week too…

I will give you a sample micro, plus FYI my diet is up - eating well, v. high protein (1.25-1.5glb/bw), and more carbs. I eat approx. 3500kcal-3800kcal.
5’8" and 180lbs and climbing. Cypionate 500mg a week, week 2.5

so the plan:

Day 1- AM legs (Breathing on all presses)15 sets, 6 sets Calf.
PM- Chest 9 Sets and BI 6 sets.

Day 2- Delts 12 sets and Traps 9 sets and calves 3 sets.

Day 3- AM Chest 12 sets and Bi 9 sets and forearm 3 sets
PM- Legs (breathing)10 sets and calves 3-6 sets.

Day 4- Back 15 sets and Tri 9 sets. Grip work.

Day 5- OFF (Posing routine work)[/quote]

As others stated you know what works best for you, and you know your limits. When splitting my exercises up in one day I prefer to do two upper body exercises instead of trying to work one upper body group with legs. I know your supplementation is enhancing you a bit but I know I’d like to give a full day dedicated to my legs so I can bust ass and let them recover. But like I said this is my opinion and u know your body better than I.

[quote]I use Rest/Pause on most of the last working sets, or a drop set (always an intensity technique on last working set). For ALL squats, leg presses, and Hacks i do breathing sets on all sets-fucking love it!

So as you can see… alot of training. Now i know i can handle the volume/workload for the straight 4 day split, and repeat that split every 5 days without OT, i am not working remember, and i have nothing else going on, (no going out - just training and eating and sleeping, and that has been so-apart for the odd client-for the past 6 months!! put on 35lbs! it’s fucking great! everyone - quit now!!).[/quote]

I’m nearing the end of my last baseball season in college. Next year my schedule will involve school, managing a Nutrishop where I will get hooked up with supplements, and lifting. I can also follow a complete diet at work because I will have a lot of stagnant time. Working with my brain instead of body. lol So my days will be focused on diet/training :slight_smile: can’t wait!

[quote]But as you can see i am bringing up my chest, Biceps and Legs… and it is working too. Really. I am not currently losing strength, i am gaining it. I am gaining weight (cyp helps) etc…
and those 3 bodyparts are all improving noticeably.
Now, the question at hand…

AM I OVERTRAINING? I will force a day off every Day 5, then rinse and repeat. I know i should be OT, but i really don’t feel like i am. I do not train a bodypart again if i have DOMS (that always gives me an injury), and if i become un-motivated i have a rest day.
Also, you should know, i do like to push the boundaries of my recovery slightly above and beyond what i can do, so i do OT fairly regularly, to the point of loss of motivation and a flat look to my muscle bellies, just to back right off and enjoy the supercompensation. This works for me and i have done it periodically and successfully for about 6 months now. with good results.

Should/could i keep this up until i present symptoms of overtraining, (which i feel i am tuned in to recognise due to my style of overload) then move to a low volume (DC i was thinking) type of workout? Or do you think i could keep this up longer term? I know it is a kinda subjective question, depending on my personal recovery ability, but this is the plan, and i wanted to run it by some of the guys who have seen this kind of total load successfully implemented, either with yourselves or with clients, and what you think is going on? A slow build up to overtraining, OR just a large amount of sustainable, hard work?

Joe[/quote]

I think you’d be fine overall.

So I noticed you said posing routine work? When is the competition your planning on doing?

Gerdy

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
Joe, you know your limits. Don’t go past them, and you won’t overtrain.[/quote]

how does anyone know there limit? I say try it see what happens if your not making gains change it.

@ Gerdy, hi mate and thanks for the input…

Legs… well, i would normally agree, but these days i am so fuckin’ jacked to get into the gym i really have the energy to do a full Squat/Leg press session after a full workout in the morning! Is definitely the lack of work. i know this for sure.

Also re: posing… i haven’t decided on a competition yet, i have recently become kinda pals with an “old” Mr GB and i will be asking his advice on that and also trying to convince him to help me with a routine.
I am 180lb-ish now, and want to get upto 200/210lbs and compete at 180lb/190lbs for my first… then we will see! :wink:

@ fulmen and sentoguy (where do ppl get these names??) I agree with you both, it is a matter of knowing one’s limits and working as close to the line on either side as possible to achieve the best results. I am positive it is the not working that allows me to have such high limits at the moment too sento, when working-even non-manual labour… i wouldn’t dream of trying to recover from twice daily sessions!

@christine… No, you are not the only one! I too believe the same, and while most of the people i used to talk to in the gym in a professional capacity, used to get mediocre results 3x 1 hr a week. the people with stunning results trained for 2 hours, 5x a week! I agree, which is why my workout is scheduled as it is!!

@ds77- i totally agree. when i used to be a labourer on a site, i started at a time when i was training 5x a week. I continued to do this into the first week of the job… both humeral bicep tendons went at the same time and my left rotator was a mess!! LOL! i was in agony and couldn’t train for a month!! when i did go back, 3 times a week, hard and heavy - and with the gruelling work lifting plasterboard up and down stairs all day… i was in lovely shape! Those abs at that time got me a few blow jobs i wouldn’t have received otherwise!! LOL!

Thanks everyone, did 2 workouts today, and blew my last week outta the water… again!!

Joe

Right on man. Keep it up then!

Let me know when you decide on a competition and how you fare. lol I placed 2nd in two teen bodybuilding competitions in the past. Now being 20 its time to compete with the big boys. I also feel I need to put on another 20+ lbs lbm before I’m competitive.

Take it easy man

Gerdy

its hard to make sense of it all. I just switched my program up and get proper rest and nutrition. Not overloading it even. kept nutrition the exact same nothings changed. and as soon as winter hit i put on like 4lbs of fat almost automatically.

makes me think i’m overtraining even with all my lifts going up. its like you get paranoid and idk. its f’d up. what do u all think?

If you eat enough each day (enough is usually more than you think) and are aware of your body’s limitations, then high volume (although this isn’t too high volume) and high frequency together is possible. But, you should know the difference between laziness and your body being overly tired.

If you just don’t want to do your PM workout for example and try to find excuses, that’s laziness. On the other hand, if your muscles are too sore and you feel joint pain, you should probably skip that workout. Honesty with yourself is basically what you have to pay attention to.