T Nation

Winstrol Dosage : Cycle Duration


#1

I see it repeated over and over that 17-AA orals should never be run for longer than six weeks straight, but I never see any mention of whether dosage would influence that recommendation.

For instance, I've heard of Winstrol being run at everything from 25mg to 100mg daily. How could it be possible that both these dosages would require treatment cessation at the six week mark?

I've been asked by someone who is running a complex cycle that includes Deca, Sust, Primo, Masteron, and Winstrol to look over his ~12 week cycle. He planned to run 50mg Winstrol tabs every day for the full cycle, which I felt was too long. Would lowering the dosage to 25mg per day allow the Winstrol to be run safely throughout?

Part of the reasoning behind the Winstrol is 1) to act as a Class II anabolic, and 2) to hopefully provide some progesterone receptor competition for the Deca (which is dosed at about 300mg / week). Point 2 is my main reason for preferring long-term, lower-dose Winstrol as opposed to a higher dose that must be discontinued prematurely.

Any help or insight would be much appreciated.


#2

the "over 6 week oral cycles will kill your liver"-statement is one of the clearest examples of bro-science. It's based on nothing and just false parroting.

Big Cat said loooooong ago that it's best to keep oral under 6 weeks, because that's a very nice conservative way to cycle in terms of liver damage. The chances of someone fucking his liver up is very low, unless with a history of liver problems or with alcohol or painkiller addiction.

And here's what people forget: he also said you can cycle more than 6 weeks but it gets more and more risky IF you don't get your liver values checked every 2 weeks. If these turn out fine there is no reason to stop on those grounds.

I agree with this guideline, but it isn't written in stone or medical fact at all.
It's ludacris how many times I've read that for example 20mg of halotestin will put holes in your liver in 6 weeks, when a study of 20mg for 4 months on 20mg point out no noteworthy changes whatsoever.


#3

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#4

And also to address the dosage portion of the question, i would never exceed 100mg/day. But based on the person's size and tolerance for side effects 50-100 will generally suffice.


#5

I agree with the first part. Winstrol is notorious for doing that, and while var is "milder", it just doesn't like HDL. It loves to give it a good spanking.

The second part however, I do not, because high BP is so very easy to treat with prescription or OTC med, and you cannot single out halo or orals in this regard.


#6

Thanks for chiming in, guys.

Regarding the OTC blood pressure treatments, are there any in particular that you would recommend? I'm not aware of any OTC meds, so I'm assuming you were referring to supplements? How about anything that can be taken to improve blood lipids?

Concerning the dosage to liver toxicity issue, do you feel that it's a somewhat linear relationship in the sense that 100mg will do twice as much damage as 50mg? Or is it more like there's a threshold depending on the user that, once surpassed, will begin to cause damage in a dose-dependent fashion? In other words, if 40mg / day is as much as my liver can handle, then taking 30mg / day may stress the liver but will cause no damage, whereas 50mg / day will damage the liver, and 60mg / day will damage the liver at twice the rate as 50mg, etc.?

Also, do you feel that 25mg / day is too small a dose to be "worth" taking? This would be in addition to about 1000mg of total AASs per week. I like the idea of Winstrol not only for being the sole class II androgen in this stack, but for its progesterone receptor competition and SHBG-lowering qualities. But, again, running it for less than the full cycle would negate most of these ancillary benefits.


#7

In terms of lipids: if you are taking other AAS, such as testosterone or methandrostenolone, wherein estrogen issues may arise and will have to implement estrogen control, you could opt to take a SERM such a clomiphene that is correlated with an increase or at least stabilization of HDL cholesterol (though this is dependdant on several factors, and may need to be matched with lower dose AI).

You can also, of course, take fish oil, increase monounsaturated fats in you diet, and do some level of extended cardiovascular training (all of which have fair to good scientific support in increasing HDL levels).

In terms of hepatic distress/dose dependents: As far as I have seen, the specifics of stanozolol and liver toxicity have not been well established in available medical literature. While varying degrees of liver toxicity has been confirmed in many studies, all I have ever come across dealt with treatment of various groups of people suffering from various ailments. Largely they were given relatively low doses, and often experienced changes in liver values within a few weeks (some studies extending for months).

Dose-dependents has not been well established, and while there are solid theories as to the various causes of stanozolol's liver toxicity (not limited to its C17 α-alkylation), this too has not been well established. The best thing to do would start conservatively while testing liver values regularly, and only increase the dose if all is ok.

Of note: there are various pharmaceutical and OCT/supplement based HEPATOXICITY INHIBITORS that may lessen the damage caused by stanozolol.

In terms of Blood Pressure: I would simply talk to your doctor and receive a prescription for a blood pressure medication. You can be direct and honest with your doctor. If he or she does not like your life decisions, and will not help you decrease the risks of them, find a new doctor. They are all bound to confidentiality.

While I am not a doctor, and cannot give you health advice, I do like the bp med Hydrochlorothiazide, as it decreases sodium (which is retained to a great extent with many AAS), and increases potassium retention.

Best of luck,

Mid


#8

P.S. With any substance that has been established to have toxicity, I always play it safe. There is a reason that many experts in the field of AAS recommend short oral cycles, even if much of this is not well based in scientific studies and reports.


#9

Regarding BP medications (like the one you mention) that get rid of "excess water", wouldn't that be counter-productive when taking an oral like Dbol where you're retaining a lot of water? And if so what would you recommend in its place?


#10

I would not call it "counter-productive". Methandrostenolone (dbol) causes water retention to such a large degree for multiple reasons, only one of which is electrolyte alterations, and its anabolic effects are not directly connected to it's water retentive properties. It also increases blood pressure for multiple reasons, and so being on such a medication may not eliminate, but just lower, one's blood pressure.

While many take methandrostenolone with the increases in "pump" in mind, such a medication as hydrochlorothiazide would neither take away the pump significantly (though it might make it more manageable), nor diminish gains from such AAS administration. It may, however, decrease kidney stress, decrease sweating, and lower an on-cycle risk factor for heart disease (being high blood pressure).

With all of this in mind, it is worth noting that, while acute, dose-dependent increases in blood pressure have been well established in terms of AAS, hypertension has NOT been correlated to cyclical AAS administration.

Still, a doctor (if you talked to one), would be able to help you thoroughly in terms of decreasing risk factors of being on cycle.