T Nation

Winny only cycle?

If someone was going to do a 6week cycle, and the initial plan was to just use inj.winstrol - maybe 100mg/eod. is it necessary to stack a testosterone ester with the winny? sort of to maintain functions normally dependent upon having test in the system?

Not necessary, no.

Ok - not necessary but would it be beneficial?!

btw, the cycle is in prep for an an “athletic” event (ie NOT bb!) and i don’t need to add any more than 7-10lb but want increased strength.

Try some test prop…100mg eod…
diet is the key…

If you’re talking about cycles of equivalent milligrams per week, so that if you add say 100 mg of testosterone you must subtract 100 mg of Winstrol, then adding much testosterone will not add to your cycle and may actually take away from it. In other words, 350 mg/week of Winstrol is in my opinion a better cycle for most than is 250 mg/week of testosterone with only 100 mg/week of testosterone. I know others may disagree and since I’ve seen some people do well on low dose testosterone, like 250 mg/week as the only steroid though most do much better with 500-1000 mg/week total steroids, those people who have experienced that certainly have reason to think I am wrong. On average I believe I am right though.

If you’re talking about a small amount of testosterone, like 100 mg/week, so the Winstrol still stays not-that-bad at 250 mg/week, then results will probably be the same and I can’t guarantee they might not be a little better.

Can you achieve your goals with the Winstrol only? Yes, for sure, easily.

If your question is, would adding testosterone on top of the Winstrol, keeping Winstrol dose the same, give faster gains, the answer is of course yes.

thanks Bill and Stud - you both helped. I appreciate the point you made about adding test in order to up the total dosage giving faster results; of course, it’s obvious ! what caused my confusion was this stuff about “class 1 and 2” steroids. I wasn’t sure where winstrol fitted in and wondered if i should stack it to “cover the bases” sort of thing?

I had considered 500mg test enanthate for the first 3-4 weeks, switching to 100mg prop with each of the winstrol shots for the last couple of weeks (+clomid of course!)?

Alternatively 400mg prima to go with the winstrol all the way through; this second one looked preferable as i feel it would result in less water retention enabling me to make weight easier. Would i still need the clomid?

You don’t need Clomid (or any other side-effects-correcting) drug during a Primo/Winstrol cycle, unless you want the property Clomid has of improving blood lipid profile, or like its estrogenic effect on other tissues for some reason (e.g., mood.)

The reason the Class I/Class II stacking thing
doesn’t quite apply to the example I gave – equal milligrams – is that synergy cannot be evaluated by equal milligrams if potencies are different.

For an extreme example, let’s consider methyltrienolone, which is extraordinarily potent. Let’s say (I don’t recall the dosing) that 1 mg/day truly kicks ass. And let’s say it is a Class I steroid (I don’t know.)

OK, will adding 1/2 mg/day of Dianabol, requiring us to cut the methyltrienolone dose by 50% to keep equal milligrams, give more gains? No. Synergy cannot be evaluated that way.

Instead you would determine how many mg/day of Dianabol gives the same results as one mg/day of methyltrienolone. Let’s say this proves to be 50 mg/day. Then, the question is, is 0.5 mg/day methyltrienolone plus 25 mg/day Dianabol more effective than either 50 mg/day Dianabol or 1 mg/day methyltrienolone? If so, we have synergy.

Another approach is to see what the maximal gains are that can be achieved with high dose. Gains from methyltrienolone will have some limit; ditto for gains from Dianabol. If a mixture of the two drugs can give higher total gains we have synergy.

OK, that was a long explanation. But the point was, I think that taking away say 200 mg/week of Winstrol for the sake of getting 200 mg/week testosterone is not a balanced trade because for the average person (there are exceptions) it probably takes 300 mg testosterone or more to equal 200 mg Winstrol.

If you were to ask me, would you get more results by dropping Winstrol by 200 mg/week but adding in an equivalent-by-itself amount of 300 mg/week testosterone, the answer would be “maybe” (how’s that for definitive?)

The reason it is dubious is that I suspect that at the 350 mg/week Winstrol dose you still have significant natural T production, which is going to be lost by adding testosterone. So even without injecting testosterone, you already have a testosterone/Winstrol stack, just from your natural testosterone that remains. That might not be so – I would be very interested in blood tests and want to do them sometime on questions exactly like this – but I suspect it is. So it might take more like 400 mg/week testosterone, in that situation, to make up for taking away 200 mg/week Winstrol.

wow! thanks Bill - you can really get into this stuff can’t you?!!

OK just to keep things comparitively simple (if nothing else) it would appear that, given the reason I’m using the anaabolics, prima + winstrol seems a better option. i can’t get TA or anavar so don’t know what else i could add to increase the effects on strength rather than mass?

so, prima @400mg/wk + winstrol @ 350mg/wk doesn’t need clomid for recovery during or afterwards?

thanks.

Jus, from what you’re saying, a Primo/Winstrol cycle such as you described would be an excellent choice for you.

I’d prefer using the Winstrol for only 5 weeks. Day 1 would be 150 or 200 mg because ordinarily speaking, when you inject 50 mg you still have at least another 100 or 150 mg (possibly more) in your system from before. So to get that on day 1, you have to inject more. Same principle applies with the Primo, inject a week’s worth extra on day 1, or nearly so (at least half a week’s worth.)

When you discontinue the Winstrol (because you don’t want to use a 17-alkylated for too long – 5 weeks is fine but it’s true that many go 8 weeks with no problem) increase the Primo dose, by about double the number of milligrams that Winstrol is being reduced. Since Winstrol is being reduced by 350 mg/week, the Primo would be increased to about a gram. Though Primo is expensive, so is Winstrol, and the price difference should not be that bad. If availability or finances don’t allow that much increase, still increase Primo by what you can, or alternately if you’re happy with your results at the six week point, which is very possible, you could end right there. Well, I’d add one or more weeks of Primo at 400 mg/week, but keep total length down to 8 weeks (preferably.)

It would still be preferable to use Clomid afterwards, but with this cycle, you could do OK without it.