T Nation

Will This Be Ok


#1

Hello all 40 years old 6 foot 1 235 decent shape a little flab around the waist area been working out most of my adult life on and off
workout 5 days a week cardio ,strenght training
diet has been strict last 2 weeks and plan on keeping it this way

i live in Mx so i will be buying my test at Costco or Walmart around the block so it will be good gear

Not looking to get huge but would like to pack on some muscle ,loose some fat,and gain some strenght,also the increase in lebido would be welcomed jejeje
I plan on being strict with workout and diet

looking to take shots every 7 days was thinking sust 250 but after reading that i would need to shot 2 times a week maybe not the best for me as it would be inpractical in my situation these are my 2 choices wich one would you go with

first cycle ever 12 weeks

1 shot every 7 days sust 250 also proviron 50 mg everyday 25 mg pm,am for possible sides and ive been reading good lebido boost from the proviron+test

or

1 shot every 7 days primoteston 250 and the proviron at the same dose as above

wich would you go with i know its light but thats what im looking for my first cycle

also i will be doing PCT after the 12 week cycle thanks for your help


#2

Sust needs like 3x per week injections. Testosterone enanthate would be a better.


#3

thanks for the reply i will go with the primoteston 250 @ i shot every 7 days does my plan for the proviron 50 mg ed 25 am pm sound ok?


#4

Starting the second thread wasnt necessary. Maybe I missed it but why can you not inject more than once a week?


#5

sorry abot the second thread just being pushy sorry

i cant shoot 2 times a week because i am freaky about needles and will have to go to a clinic and get a shot from a nurse i could handle it once a week on my day off from work but 2 would be to much ,from what ive been reading the primoteston 250 will be ok at once a week do you agree? thanks and the double post wont happen again


#6

[quote]pollo wrote:
sorry abot the second thread just being pushy sorry

i cant shoot 2 times a week because i am freaky about needles and will have to go to a clinic and get a shot from a nurse i could handle it once a week on my day off from work but 2 would be to much ,from what ive been reading the primoteston 250 will be ok at once a week do you agree? thanks and the double post wont happen again
[/quote]

I’m actually lost for words to reply to this one. You’re still freaked out by needles at 40 years of age, you refuse to listen to reason and go the intelligent route (to a doctor), you insist on things that don’t make any sense, and you are prepared to use AAS because your diet and workout routines have been good for THREE weeks (not to mention you are prepared to use AAS at doses that present a VERY low reward/risk ratio) and haven’t seen results. How fast do you actually think the body is capable of changing its composition? Progress happens over years, not over 3 weeks.

I tried to help, and I tried to be nice about it, but you are actually one fucking stupid 40 year old. Either that or you are a child trapped in a man’s body, or just a straight up 18 year old pretending to be older.

I have a hard time believing you have a 21 year old gf. You certainly didn’t attract her with your superior intellect or picture-perfect physique (or else we wouldn’t be here). It must just not be true, or you must have millions of dollars banked.

Put whatever the hell you want to put into your body, however many times a week you want to, and for however many weeks you want to do it. I don’t really care anymore.

/end rant (I lied, I wasn’t lost for words)
-Anybody is welcome to call me a harsh asshole if they like


#7

1 shot every 7 days primoteston 250 and the proviron at the same dose as above

what the fuck is wrong with that? its light compared to what alot of people are doing but its my first cycle and from what ive been reading and hearing its not that uncommon as some people have made decent gaines and added muscle on such a light cycle

ive been working out most of my adult life bitch not 3 weeks ,i said in the last 3 weeks i got my diet dialed in mutherfucker and that i plan to keep it dialed what the fuck is wrong with that

and yea i dont like needles to the point were im gona ping myself ill have a nurse do it cuz yea bitch i am a 40 year old millionare you hating ass motherfucker.


#8

You know its interesting in my previous post I was going to make an assertion about a fear of self injection. I typed it and deleted it because I felt it was too suppositional. In hindsight I was of course correct, I mean why else wouldn’t someone inject on a proper frequency.

Lets be clear on a few things here: Almost everyone is afraid of self injections before they try it. I was. To this day despite having given myself hundreds of self injections I still look away at the doctors office when they draw my blood. Fear of needles is nothing to be ashamed of. Its the #1 reason you see so many trying to pull off the orals only cycles. So having been there and done that I will never blast someone for the fear itself.
Now having said that, it is almost IMO a requirement to conquer that fear if one is to successfully use AAS. Its a part of the game and if you dont wanna play then dont. All the best stuff is oil based injectables. Here is the absolute truth. Everyone who like myself was scared to self inject after usually the very first injection usually has their fear vanish and they realize like so many other things in life that perception was far worse than reality.
Anything worth doing is worth doing right and the best way possible. Im pretty sure if you asked your nurse to allow you to do the shot yourself and she could talk you thru it she would. If you need a safety net and confidence booster thats fine. Its somewhat unconventional but if you fear the standard issue 23G 1.5" needle you can consider just using an insulin syringe, assuming you are not moderately obese. Bis, tris or delts for most with less than 15% bodyfat are injection site candidates even for the short .5" needle. A 28-31G needle is not even something you will feel. Truth be told you probably wont feel a 23G 1.5" needle either as they are very sharp and just glide right thru.
So in sum, no shame at all with the phobia. Most have been there and done that. But most also at sometime decide to take the plunge. When you realize it the best choice for maximum control, maximum results and maximum efficiency you will face that fear. Once conquered you will realize, like me and countless others, it was all in your head.


#9

Saps thanks for that its true i didnt even feel the first shot ,im looking forward to the second one thanks dude

i decided after doing alot of reading and talking to some friends that i will go with a low dose cycle

12 weeks

primoteston 250 once a week for my first cycle i know its low but ive heard and read on these boards of plenty of people doing fine on 250 a week plus i consider myself an easy gainer

privoron 50 mg ED 25mg am pm

will keep arimidex on hand just in case

will follow my workout and diet strictly
and see how i do once again dude thanks


#10

[quote]JoeyD20 wrote:

-Anybody is welcome to call me a harsh asshole if they like[/quote]

I was thinking the opposite. You tried to help and pollo wouldn’t listen.

As saps said, most of us do/did have some sort of fear of needles. I still look away when the doc draws blood as well, but I have no issue whatsoever of self injecting.

While I don’t agree (at all) with your approach, I wish you luck.


#11

Hello Icarus

what part of my approach dont you agree with ?

from what ive been reading and hearing im doing a very simple 12 week test cycle,on the low side maybe but reccomended for my first cycle by a few good people thanks for wishing me luck peace dude


#12

and for the fear of needles im getting over that shit, as we speak it was all in my head first shot wasnt shit
im sure if i decide on a 2nd cycle i will be pinging myself thanks


#13

If you have X amount of testosterone. It is more productive to run a higher dose for a shorter duration (obviously keeping the total amount the same).

An 8 week cycle at 750mg/wk is more productive than a 12 week cyle at 500mg/wk. Both use 6g. Shorter cycles are easier to recover from. There is also the amount of time one is suppressed to be considered. People usually start PCT around 14 days after their last injection of an enanthate estered drug. So if you run it for 12 weeks you are actually not going begin recovering until 14 weeks after the first injection. Is it really worth keeping your balls shut off for that long of a time, especially at your age, where good recovery isnt a guarentee at all?

When looking at the bigger picture running three 8 week cycles is more productive than running two 12 week cycles. Both are 24 weeks of on time. But many people find that gains start to slow down at a certain point towards the last weeks of a 12 week cycle. It is also easier to stay focused on the task for 2 months as opposed to 3 months.

I dont see my self ever running a cycle longer than 8 weeks ever again.


#14

thanks for the info bonez


#15

pollo, just a little more info so you make the best decision for you. Your current intent seems to be given 1ml of Primoteston Depot 250 [test-e] per week. Depending on your natural make-up, age, and a variety of other factors your body unless you have some sort of problem with your endocrinology probably makes between 25-75mg of testosterone per week. Yes thats a pretty large variance but thats the understood working range.

Now you might think adding 250mg of test into the mix significantly boosts that natural figure but lets looks inside the numbers. Your 1 shot of test-e is called 250mg but when you factor in that the enanthate ester reduces by 28% the amount of real/actual test you get you see its really only 180mg of extra test per week you’re adding. Well fine you think, 180 extra is still almost tripling what my body makes even if Im on the high end of the spectrum making 75mg per week. True, but then you factor in half life. Test-e’s half life is slightly less than 5 days but we’ll round off for simplicity. Translation 5 days after that injection of 250 [really 180mg] of test you really only have 90mg of added test in you. Extrapolate that out to 7 days and the figure drops to about 70mg. 70mg of remaining test in your body when you re-shoot based on your current plan.

It will take a couple weeks for your natural T to shut off its own production. But on Day 15 lets say the start of your week 3 and the day of your third shot. All the test which will remain from your Day 1 shot is 20mg or so.

Given your current plan you are basically just turning off your own T to supplement with levels which don’t really exceed what you already have significantly either in quantity or duration. Sure the day you get your shot it will spike but by the time you re-shoot you have lost over 60% of what you put in one week prior. That degree of fluctuation is what will increase your side effects.

200mg/wk is considered the high end of TRT. Im fairly certain your intent is not merely TRT but something resembling notable performance progress. Given the goals you articulated in the first post of gaining some mass and strength, a boost in libido [fat loss is outside the scope of test], I urge you to re-examine the effectiveness of your proposed cycle.


#16

Saps thanks again very good reading you know your shit and thanks for taking the time to help a newbi like me that hasnt done his homework but the more i read the more confussed i get i copied and pasted this ,its the kind of shit that confusses me

If you’ve read some of my posts on other boards, you probably already have seen that I advocate suggesting low doses for beginners & nbsp;. Why jump into 600mg per week of test as a first or second cycle when it is highly likely you will get great gains using 200-300mg (in initial cycles)?

I keep seeing people write that 200mg of testosterone per week does nothing more than shut down a man’s natural test production and bring him near “normal levels”–this is not quite correct (part of the statement is correct part of it is not). This incorrect statement has endured probably because someone wrote down thier idea/theory of what happens in the body, it sounded good, and other people repeated it. But, it is not correct. Yes, 200mg of a long lasting ester of testosterone will shut down natural test production, BUT the amount of 200mg of a long lasting ester of testosterone is more than twice the “normal levels” of test in the body of a healthy non-steroid using male. Therefore, 200mg of a long lasting ester of testosterone per week is far more than enough to grow on.

(I explain more below)

I was paranoid about side effects of testosterone on a normally functioning body, so I had my blood levels checked while on 200-250mg per week. The results of the tests indicated that the amount of testosterone in my blood was more than twice the high end of the normal range (The normal free testosterone range is 50.0-210.0 pg/ml*. My levels were found to be near 550 pg/ml). I also talked to my doctor and UPJOHN nurses a lot about using testosterone at these doses. Here’s a brief bit of what I’ve learned from my doctor, the UPJOHN nursing staff (UPJOHN was the original manufacturer of Depo-testosterone a.k.a Testosterone Cypionate.  The rights of Depo-testosterone was sold to PFIZER which now produces it under the name PHARMACIA), and professional medical documents:

*–NOTE: pg/ml is the correct unit notation.

Using a long acting ester testosterone (CYP and ENAN) does not mimic the normally functioning male body’s circadian rhythm (daily rise and fall of testosterone). Testosterone, in a normally functioning body, does not explode up to high levels then gradually fall over a 1-2 week period as it does when injecting a testosterone such as CYP or ENAN. On the contrary, the body produces a small amount each day which is far below 200mg (It’s around 10mg). That small amount is concentrated at the beginning of the day and then falls low by the end of the day. This process repeats itself every day and by the end of two weeks, a normally functioning body produces approximately 140mg of testosterone (appx. 70mg per week).

The use of long acting esters are in theory supposed to slowly release the testosterone over a two week period, but this is not quite what happens. To keep it simple, the delay of the esters actually allows large amounts of testosterone to build up–especially if you are taking 200mg every week as opposed to once every two weeks (biweekly) which is what the dose is supposed to be. (I’m simplifying here). Remember the “normally functioning” male produces only (appx.) 70mg per week (=140mg per two weeks). The dose doctors are recommended to perscribe is 200mg every 2 weeks (biweekly), but they tend to give 200mg every week.

So, it is fallacious reasoning to compare the TOTAL amount of testosterone produced in daily spurts in a normally functioning body over a 2 week period to the same amount of testosterone injected in one shot at the beginning of a week and reshot every week (before the previous week’s dose is used up). The latter case (injections once per week) results in an overlap and build up of dose which causes the levels of testosterone to be HIGHER than normal. (Remember the shots should actually be 200mg every TWO weeks–not every week). These excess levels of testosterone are sufficient to build lean body mass faster than the “normally functioning” male.

In other words: addding up what the average male body produces per week then comparing that to the amount that is shot every week is like comparing apples to oranges. There is a whole diferent set of advantageous reactions happening in the body when it is given a full
2-week load (200mg) at the beginning of a week as opposed to getting naturally occuring, small, daily spurts of appx 10mg over the same period of time (2 weeks).

This is why a low dose cycle can yeild REASONABLE gains. Understand, I’m not talking mega-huge-fast gains. I’m talking noticably-faster-than-normal gains, which when coupled with a strict diet, sufficient rest and an excellent bodybuilding work ethic, can yeild large, solid gains (especially early in a person’s cycle experience).


#17

Yeah we’re close to being on the same page. Clearly your mind is made up and I wish you well. The intent of TRT of course is not to build muscle per se by comparison to your intentions but literally to replace what a normal man has. Its why the 200mg every 2 weeks is out there. Even if it was 100mg every week yes it not a muscle building dose but rather a maintenance dose level and there’s nothing wrong with that for that purpose.

Im not going to try and change your mind on your desired dose level. I know you’re locked in there. But it is your words above [whether they are your own or a copy and paste] which maybe can convince you to consider increasing the frequency even with the same weekly dose.
I think we both agree about what you terms overlap and build up.

We also agree that a shot once a week is better than every other week. What I hope you see by way of logical deduction is that whereas 200mg 1 might result in some degree of [to use your direct words above] “overlap and build up of dose which causes the levels of testosterone to be HIGHER than normal.” If this overlap and build up is desired 100mg twice a week would be even more effective at achieving that stated goal.

Its the whole reason myself and others were trying to steer you towards doing the shots yourself. The increased frequency is more desireable for every stated goal you have. You can keep whatever dose level you like.

Finally I just re-read your post above and Im a bit confused. You have some statements which Im not sure are your assertions or you copy and pasted [since you referred to doing that as well]. I was under the impression based on your first post this would be your first cycle; perhaps I was wrong.

So when you issue a statement like “Therefore, 200mg of a long lasting ester of testosterone per week is far more than enough to grow on.” Is that copy and paste or are those your own words? If they are yours, do you draw that conclusion based on conjecture or previous cycle personal experience?

Lastly, your second to the last paragraph also has me confused. [Again not sure its a copy and paste or your own thinking.] It says there are advantageous reactions from a full load given at once as opposed to small daily spurts. However, that pretty much flies in the face of everything else you had said up to that point. The reality is we want to minimize the fluctuations.

Our natural bodies have very little variance as you mentioned during any given day or week you will always be within 10mg of whatever you level is. Its the reason there is a small group of users out there who actually hit that test daily. In other words, someone who wanted to run your desired 200mg/wk would hit about 30mg a day every day. It is this person who will have the least fluctuations and the most and fastest overlap and build up.

There is a reason they dont make versions of test with month long half lives. Its part of the reason now that more and more educated doctors are gravitating away from bi-monthly shots to weekly shots. A lot of it is convenience. In your own case this is the reality as well. Well I have to go in once a week for my TRT shot.

Its the Western society idea of calendar and that once a week is a normal routine. Could you ask your doctor/nurse to give you 100mg per shot one on Monday and one on Friday? For them that might seem unconventional but it would be more effective. Now no doctor is going to agree to daily shots, especially since they probably arent working weekends? Why? #1 its impractical for their schedule.
Now Im rambling.

I hope its coming thru that Im not trying to be combative or contrarian. Im really trying to put forward what I think is best for you given your stated goals.


#18

Saps dude thanks again yea the above was copied and pasted (i said that on top) its just an example of the kind of info that is all over the net that confusses newbies to gear
you know your shit and im learning ,i got alot more to learn and i will thanks for your help

i will be going with 300 mg test E a week 1 shot every 6 days + 50 mg proviron ED 25 AM PM
DO you see a need to add arimedex ED? i will have it on hand just in case

once again thanks reading your post have made me read and learn
also say in the middle of my cycle i get around to being able to ping myself would it be ok to split the dose to 2 times a week? thanks again


#19

Yes splitting dose and doubling frequency would be very recommended and encouraged. You should have the adex on hand. The half life of adex does not require you to take it ED, EOD even E3D is fine. A lot depends on how much you use and need. Regarding need opinions vary a lot here. One camp starkly believes an AI should always be part of the mix even with a TRT dose. The other camp believes in the use it when and if you need it. So much depends on your sensitivity to estrogen and how much conversion you have from the test