T Nation

Will America Go Communist, Like China?

For 18 of the past 20 centuries, China’s economy was the largest in the world (absolutely and relatively). They’ve been more successful than the New York Yankees.

Now they are apparently on their way to that position again. Is their ‘model’ something that we will adopt, simply as a means of survival? How long can a popular but bickering republic last, in the face of such a powerhouse?

Ideas? Opinions? Discuss.

The Chinese government is going to have to liberalize eventually.

They cannot expect their citizens to keep producing and innovating without some basic freedoms.

Or maybe they can; I don’t know.

The US is destined to step closer and closer to socialism and is well on its way.

Investment tip: Learn Mandarin and or move to Asia.

You now have China, and even some parts of Europe, becoming more Capitalistic while America is moving toward a Socialist society. I spoke to my uncle (in Italy) recently and he has told me that the people their love this new Capitalism. I guess they got tired of taking home 50 cents for every Euro they make.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
For 18 of the past 20 centuries, China’s economy was the largest in the world (absolutely and relatively). They’ve been more successful than the New York Yankees.

Now they are apparently on their way to that position again. Is their ‘model’ something that we will adopt, simply as a means of survival? How long can a popular but bickering republic last, in the face of such a powerhouse?

Ideas? Opinions? Discuss.[/quote]

Having spent a lot of China, all I can say is that it isn’t Communist by any definition. It’s more capitalistic than the US, or any other country for that matter. Why is it getting richer? Because it exploits the hell out of its working people (you know, the ones that a socialist country is supposed to uplift). And to escape giving decent wages to their own workers, the capitalists of the world have shipped their jobs there, so that they, too, can exploit the hell out of the Chinese worker. Yeah, it’s ruled by members of the so-called Communist Party. They sing The Internationale every now and then. That’s it. So, if you like Laissez-Faire capitalism, you’ll love China.

[quote]entheogens wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
For 18 of the past 20 centuries, China’s economy was the largest in the world (absolutely and relatively). They’ve been more successful than the New York Yankees.

Now they are apparently on their way to that position again. Is their ‘model’ something that we will adopt, simply as a means of survival? How long can a popular but bickering republic last, in the face of such a powerhouse?

Ideas? Opinions? Discuss.

Having spent a lot of China, all I can say is that it isn’t Communist by any definition. It’s more capitalistic than the US, or any other country for that matter. Why is it getting richer? Because it exploits the hell out of its working people (you know, the ones that a socialist country is supposed to uplift). And to escape giving decent wages to their own workers, the capitalists of the world have shipped their jobs there, so that they, too, can exploit the hell out of the Chinese worker. Yeah, it’s ruled by members of the so-called Communist Party. They sing The Internationale every now and then. That’s it. So, if you like Laissez-Faire capitalism, you’ll love China.
[/quote]

Government exploits!

Productive enterprise uplifts and liberates!

Know the difference and understand why this is true.

I’d be interested to know more, and to know accurately, what the current situation is in China in these regards.

Relatively few years ago, at least in some instances including some chemical manufacturers, the companies were owned by the Chinese government.

I understand there are also instances now where companies in China are owned by individuals or collections of individuals, not the government. Though on the other hand the government can tell them exactly what they can or cannot do, such as for example requiring chemical companies to shut down around the time of the Olympics.

Many years in the past it was the case that workers worked where the government ordered them to.

Is that still the case?

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
You now have China, and even some parts of Europe, becoming more Capitalistic while America is moving toward a Socialist society. I spoke to my uncle (in Italy) recently and he has told me that the people their love this new Capitalism. I guess they got tired of taking home 50 cents for every Euro they make. [/quote]

I really wish more Americans could see that. Capitalism with a bit and I do mean a bit of government oversight, works. Why are so many Americans chomping at the bit over government hand outs???

[quote]entheogens wrote:

Having spent a lot of China, all I can say is that it isn’t Communist by any definition. It’s more capitalistic than the US, or any other country for that matter. Why is it getting richer? Because it exploits the hell out of its working people (you know, the ones that a socialist country is supposed to uplift). And to escape giving decent wages to their own workers, the capitalists of the world have shipped their jobs there, so that they, too, can exploit the hell out of the Chinese worker. Yeah, it’s ruled by members of the so-called Communist Party. They sing The Internationale every now and then. That’s it. So, if you like Laissez-Faire capitalism, you’ll love China.
[/quote]

Yeah, no.

You have a weird definition of “capitalism.” China has tons of SOEs and only kinda-sorta has property rights. The workers aren’t really being “exploited” they are choosing to go work their cuz dying of cancer working in a factory is a hell of a lot better than starving to death on a farm. And, oh yeah, their kids will have a better life too.

If you havea better way, let’s hear it. I’m tired of people who think they are working for the poor advocating policies that will keep those poor starving to death. China has seen the greatest drop in people living under $1/day and $2/day than anywhere else in the world (PS this means lots less people are starving to death each year). If you want to criticize their methods, fine, but come with more than some utopian fantasy.

(sorry, if this sounds harsh, I’m a little drunk)

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I’d be interested to know more, and to know accurately, what the current situation is in China in these regards.

[/quote]

I wrote a long, drunken post that answered these questions. But then I don’t think I’ll post it. PM and I’ll give 'er a shot though.

Anyway, the long an the short of it is that China is a poor, developing country. Technology transfers account for a lot of their rapid growth. But really, the formula they have used was Government-led, slow liberalization + export oriented growth. There are still tons of SOEs (state owned enterprises) but fewer every year. They still dont’ have property rights, but they do have a sort of de-facto property rights in the form of leases on the land. The US cannot “copy” China because the US is nothing like China. We don’t have millions living on less than $1/day starving to death and dreaming of a chance to work in a smoke filled factory so their kids can go to school.

If you want to know more, ask. Looking up random economic articles on developing countries is second nature to me. And I’ve got access to almost every scholarly journal and article you could want. Hell, look it up yourself on google scholar. If you need the article just ask and send an e-mail address where I can send the PDF.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I’d be interested to know more, and to know accurately, what the current situation is in China in these regards.

I wrote a long, drunken post that answered these questions. But then I don’t think I’ll post it. PM and I’ll give 'er a shot though.

Anyway, the long an the short of it is that China is a poor, developing country. Technology transfers account for a lot of their rapid growth. But really, the formula they have used was Government-led, slow liberalization + export oriented growth. There are still tons of SOEs (state owned enterprises) but fewer every year. They still dont’ have property rights, but they do have a sort of de-facto property rights in the form of leases on the land. The US cannot “copy” China because the US is nothing like China. We don’t have millions living on less than $1/day starving to death and dreaming of a chance to work in a smoke filled factory so their kids can go to school.

If you want to know more, ask. Looking up random economic articles on developing countries is second nature to me. And I’ve got access to almost every scholarly journal and article you could want. Hell, look it up yourself on google scholar. If you need the article just ask and send an e-mail address where I can send the PDF. [/quote]

How’d you come to know and have so much interest in China?

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I’d be interested to know more, and to know accurately, what the current situation is in China in these regards.

I wrote a long, drunken post that answered these questions. But then I don’t think I’ll post it. PM and I’ll give 'er a shot though.

Anyway, the long an the short of it is that China is a poor, developing country. Technology transfers account for a lot of their rapid growth. But really, the formula they have used was Government-led, slow liberalization + export oriented growth. There are still tons of SOEs (state owned enterprises) but fewer every year. They still dont’ have property rights, but they do have a sort of de-facto property rights in the form of leases on the land. The US cannot “copy” China because the US is nothing like China. We don’t have millions living on less than $1/day starving to death and dreaming of a chance to work in a smoke filled factory so their kids can go to school.

If you want to know more, ask. Looking up random economic articles on developing countries is second nature to me. And I’ve got access to almost every scholarly journal and article you could want. Hell, look it up yourself on google scholar. If you need the article just ask and send an e-mail address where I can send the PDF. [/quote]

Thanks, Gambit!

Actually the main questions I have are the kind that ordinarily would not be answered in an economics article or I would think readily findable with Google Scholar, but you still might well know. Hopefully so.

The principal two being, Are people in general, or at least some people, still ordered by the government that they must work at a given place?

And, is any individual who is not in trouble with the government able, if he has the idea and makes the contacts and raises the capital, to create and run his own business? Or, for the most part, does it take the right Party connections to succeed?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I’d be interested to know more, and to know accurately, what the current situation is in China in these regards.

I wrote a long, drunken post that answered these questions. But then I don’t think I’ll post it. PM and I’ll give 'er a shot though.

Anyway, the long an the short of it is that China is a poor, developing country. Technology transfers account for a lot of their rapid growth. But really, the formula they have used was Government-led, slow liberalization + export oriented growth. There are still tons of SOEs (state owned enterprises) but fewer every year. They still dont’ have property rights, but they do have a sort of de-facto property rights in the form of leases on the land. The US cannot “copy” China because the US is nothing like China. We don’t have millions living on less than $1/day starving to death and dreaming of a chance to work in a smoke filled factory so their kids can go to school.

If you want to know more, ask. Looking up random economic articles on developing countries is second nature to me. And I’ve got access to almost every scholarly journal and article you could want. Hell, look it up yourself on google scholar. If you need the article just ask and send an e-mail address where I can send the PDF.

Thanks, Gambit!

Actually the main questions I have are the kind that ordinarily would not be answered in an economics article or I would think readily findable with Google Scholar, but you still might well know. Hopefully so.

The principal two being, Are people in general, or at least some people, still ordered by the government that they must work at a given place? [/quote]

I’d have to look this up to be certain, but off the top of my head I would guess “yes” but also that it’s not pervasive. People are ordered to “live” in certain areas or at least they’re denied movement visas. China is big and their coasts are where a lot of the development is occurring. This means people want to move there (want to work in that factory). But it’s not like moving from Wisconsin to New York, in China they have to ask permission from the government to move across “state/province” lines. So often this does limit one’s employment options.

While I would guess that there would be instances of people being ordered to do this or that. The MO seems to be to simply buy people off. It’s easy to do with most of the dirt poor people. When China built the 3 gorges damn they bought off whole towns that they were planning to flood (and did).

However, freedom of speech is so repressed, it’s hard to know for certain of a lot of things or peoples attitudes.

[quote]And, is any individual who is not in trouble with the government able, if he has the idea and makes the contacts and raises the capital, to create and run his own business? Or, for the most part, does it take the right Party connections to succeed?
[/quote]

Your question seems strange. I wouldn’t know of a way to “make the contacts” without having Party connections. Just about everything is run through the Party. The party is the government. So if one wanted to start a business, they would need to get the paperwork/etc which would mandate they need to go through the government. I think Transparency International puts the “days to start a business” at around 35 (I think it’s about 10 in developed countries and less in some). This has been a decent corruption gauge for awhile now. I’d have to look it up though.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:

Thanks, Gambit!

Actually the main questions I have are the kind that ordinarily would not be answered in an economics article or I would think readily findable with Google Scholar, but you still might well know. Hopefully so.

The principal two being, Are people in general, or at least some people, still ordered by the government that they must work at a given place?

I’d have to look this up to be certain, but off the top of my head I would guess “yes” but also that it’s not pervasive. People are ordered to “live” in certain areas or at least they’re denied movement visas. China is big and their coasts are where a lot of the development is occurring. This means people want to move there (want to work in that factory). But it’s not like moving from Wisconsin to New York, in China they have to ask permission from the government to move across “state/province” lines. So often this does limit one’s employment options.

While I would guess that there would be instances of people being ordered to do this or that. The MO seems to be to simply buy people off. It’s easy to do with most of the dirt poor people. When China built the 3 gorges damn they bought off whole towns that they were planning to flood (and did).

However, freedom of speech is so repressed, it’s hard to know for certain of a lot of things or peoples attitudes.

And, is any individual who is not in trouble with the government able, if he has the idea and makes the contacts and raises the capital, to create and run his own business? Or, for the most part, does it take the right Party connections to succeed?

Your question seems strange. I wouldn’t know of a way to “make the contacts” without having Party connections. Just about everything is run through the Party. The party is the government. So if one wanted to start a business, they would need to get the paperwork/etc which would mandate they need to go through the government. I think Transparency International puts the “days to start a business” at around 35 (I think it’s about 10 in developed countries and less in some). This has been a decent corruption gauge for awhile now. I’d have to look it up though. [/quote]

“Strange” I think only if already aware that the claims some make or assumptions they operate by are not correct.

I had thought that it was as you say, but my basis for thinking so was just based on what I’d picked up with regard to some individual situations many years ago. But you just don’t see – or I don’t see anyway – in the press any mentions of this, so I had no way of knowing whether it was still so or whether there had been significant change towards more economic freedom. You have clarified that it has stayed basically the same in this regard. Thanks.

Sorry if I came off harsh. I certainly will never win mr. congeniality on the internet. But if you’ve questions, or if I didn’t answer these well, ask away.

Not at all, and you didn’t.

And you in fact answered what I was wondering about. Thanks.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
You now have China, and even some parts of Europe, becoming more Capitalistic while America is moving toward a Socialist society. [/quote]

That’s pretty much it. The US was on top of the world after the Great War (world wars 1&2). We’ve been steadily sliding downward while everyone else is on their way up. Human Nature is that people are naturally more afraid of loss than they are optimistic of gain, even when the loss isn’t that great. Moving from Upper Middle Class to Lower Middle Class seems unbearable, even though one can be perfectly comfortable living a lower middle class lifestyle. When threatened with the possibility of a loss of wealth/status people will embrace rather extreme ideologies. I think Americans have been so spoiled, have such a high feeling of entitlement that they will support anybody who promises continued material comfort and the illusion of safety, even if it means giving up our freedoms, rather than cut back, sacrifice or do without.

I do not know for sure but their Gov. seems more efficient than ours. I also would be curios if they have less corruption and people acting with self interest than we. I have heard when they catch some one in a blunder they execute them. I am also curious if The President of China is more like a dictator. Meaning if he decides China is going to build an electrical system that is self sustaining then it happens with out fifty compromises before it happens

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
entheogens wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
For 18 of the past 20 centuries, China’s economy was the largest in the world (absolutely and relatively). They’ve been more successful than the New York Yankees.

Now they are apparently on their way to that position again. Is their ‘model’ something that we will adopt, simply as a means of survival? How long can a popular but bickering republic last, in the face of such a powerhouse?

Ideas? Opinions? Discuss.

Having spent a lot of China, all I can say is that it isn’t Communist by any definition. It’s more capitalistic than the US, or any other country for that matter. Why is it getting richer? Because it exploits the hell out of its working people (you know, the ones that a socialist country is supposed to uplift).

And to escape giving decent wages to their own workers, the capitalists of the world have shipped their jobs there, so that they, too, can exploit the hell out of the Chinese worker. Yeah, it’s ruled by members of the so-called Communist Party. They sing The Internationale every now and then. That’s it. So, if you like Laissez-Faire capitalism, you’ll love China.

Government exploits!

Productive enterprise uplifts and liberates!

Know the difference and understand why this is true.[/quote]

What? You say the government exploit by letting productive enterprise do what they want? So the government is exploiting by doing nothing?

what the fuck

You’re right. Government really just does nothing with regard to private enterprise, just lets it do what it wants, and most certainly doesn’t forcibly take a trillion-dollars-plus per year from Americans.

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
What? You say the government exploit by letting productive enterprise do what they want? So the government is exploiting by doing nothing?

what the fuck
[/quote]
The government can steal everything you own using the law.

A business cannot use the law to steal from you.

The government exploits by redefining words and confusing innocent people to think they are in the right with these new meanings.

Taxation is not called theft. Conscription is not called slavery. War is not called mass murder. Yet, each one of these things when done by a private enterprise would be understood as a crime but not when done by the government.

I ask you, do you still not feel this is exploitation on at least some level?

Government perverts the law!