T Nation

Wilder's Speech in House of Lords

Yes on the one hand a military and political leader who led his people into power in a region (if he existed.) And possibly married a 6 year old sucked young boys tongues and condoned rape as a way of controlling enemies.

On the other a perfect son of god who never actually existed who expects us to grovel and scrape because we cannot live up to his impossibly hard to live up to standards.

Excuse me whilst I abstain from the vote.

The funny thing is that if the Jews that were alive at the time that Christ was supposed to have lived had got Mohammed instead, they would have been happier.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Yes on the one hand a military and political leader who led his people into power in a region (if he existed.) And possibly married a 6 year old sucked young boys tongues and condoned rape as a way of controlling enemies.

On the other a perfect son of god who never actually existed who expects us to grovel and scrape because we cannot live up to his impossibly hard to live up to standards.

Excuse me whilst I abstain from the vote.[/quote]

You spoke of the standards as to which we could measure true devotion, or deviation, by the followers of a couple faiths. I pointed out the obvious. Look to the central figure. The model. Don’t blame me.

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Man, let’s put the Amish in charge.[/quote]

I would not be too quick to make fun of the Amish. We are only one really severe solar storm away from the Amish being our best hope to survive as a civilized people.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Yes on the one hand a military and political leader who led his people into power in a region (if he existed.) And possibly married a 6 year old sucked young boys tongues and condoned rape as a way of controlling enemies.

On the other a perfect son of god who never actually existed who expects us to grovel and scrape because we cannot live up to his impossibly hard to live up to standards.

Excuse me whilst I abstain from the vote.[/quote]

I think it’s fairly easily argued that both Mohammed and Jesus existed as historical figures. I don’t think you can argue that point much.

As for the last paragraph, if I recall correctly the point of his ministry was that you should love God, and have a relationship with Him, and because of that serve Him, not grovel and serve because you’re terrified. In addition as I learned in my younger years, the model of perfection isn’t objective perfection because that’s impossible to live to, and he knew it. The word used was synonymous with being “complete”. The most accurate translation is something akin to being “perfect for the moment you’re living in” as opposed to never screwing up in any way. After all, that’s what forgiveness is supposed to be for isn’t it?

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
The funny thing is that if the Jews that were alive at the time that Christ was supposed to have lived had got Mohammed instead, they would have been happier.[/quote]

Indeed. I believe their stubbornness is a central theme of much of the new testament. Something to do with wanting revenge…

Mohammed originally wanted jews and christians to come on board, but the jews did not like him as a prophet because … he was not a jew! so I bet Mohammed was real angry at that.

Similarly Jesus wouldn’t have been going around telling everyone to be Christians. He was telling jews to be better, different, and stop abusing some of their own laws like making profits at the temples.

All religions have some questionable writings in them, ideas and behaviours that are not good in my opinion. Pick any religion and focus on them and you got yourself some bad people.

All religions have some really good things, good ideas about ways to behave and treat others and have a good life. Pick any religion and focus on those things, and you get some good people.

It’d be nice if someone rewrote these taking out all the bad stuff. Or at least, if people didn’t preach them, focus on the bad stuff, and adding their own interpretations based on hate. And killing people who disagree.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

I think it’s fairly easily argued that both Mohammed and Jesus existed as historical figures. I don’t think you can argue that point much.
[/quote]

OK, go ahead then. Who was Jesus and where is the evidence that he existed? Where was he born, where did he live and how did he die?

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
It’d be nice if someone rewrote these taking out all the bad stuff. Or at least, if people didn’t preach them, focus on the bad stuff, and adding their own interpretations based on hate. And killing people who disagree.

[/quote]

Or, and this may be a pretty revolutionary idea, we could just be nice to each other because it makes the world a better place. And cut out the bullshit religion totally.

This will come to a head eventually. There will be an uprising and Arabs will be kicked out much like the Jews were. People will only take so much before something just snaps and a movement starts.

[quote]Gregus wrote:
This will come to a head eventually. There will be an uprising and Arabs will be kicked out much like the Jews were. People will only take so much before something just snaps and a movement starts. [/quote]

This is not the 1930s. It will be very hard to sell such a solution to educated people. And, thank God, European government make a special effort so that everybody gets to have an education.

One can only imagine, though, what would happen, should another large scale violent crime happen in the US. In which case, I say thank God for the 2nd amendment.

It won’t happen in America. population is too castrated here. Europe is a definite flash point.