T Nation

Widowmakers on Other Bodyparts?

I’m sure this is somewhere in the DC info but I can’t find it.

20 rep widows are working well for my quads. I did low reps (8x3 etc.) in the past and strength went up but it did jack for size gains.

So, since widows work for quads, what is the reason widows are not incorporated in some way for other muscle groups? For example, what would happen if you did a heavy set of smith inclines followed by a 20 rep widow rather than using the RP protocol.

this is a very good question for a bodybuilding/DC expert, hopefully Scott will give his 2 cents

I believe it has to do with quads responding more favorably to high rep sets than other muscle groups when it comes to size gains.

I have read many Bodybuilders (for example Tom Platz) with enormous quads advocate very high rep sets, sometimes more reps than most people would even consider.

I have seen some references to widowmakers being used for very advanced DCers to bring up weak bodyparts. I assume there is a risk of burnout for lesser mortals but I’m not 100% sure.

I feel my chest is lagging somewhat, nothing catastrophic, and was wondering what options there were while still staying within DC. I’m not huge but I want to stay proportional as I grow.

It may be useful to refer to Marc Dugdale’s training split, outlined on his website. He uses quite a few widowmakers in his routine.

Refer to www.ronharrismuscle.com too. He is a DC convert who also uses them on other bodyparts. Get his Daily Pump email that outlines his workouts.

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
It may be useful to refer to Marc Dugdale’s training split, outlined on his website. He uses quite a few widowmakers in his routine.

Refer to www.ronharrismuscle.com too. He is a DC convert who also uses them on other bodyparts. Get his Daily Pump email that outlines his workouts. [/quote]

Much appreciated.

there’s a post by dante on IM about lagging parts

http://www.intensemuscle.com/14401-two-way-split-people-start-using-your-head.html

and another one answering your question/pec problem

http://www.intensemuscle.com/31864-bringing-up-weak-body-parts-via-widowmakers.html

[quote]zraw wrote:
there’s a post by dante on IM about lagging parts

http://www.intensemuscle.com/14401-two-way-split-people-start-using-your-head.html

and another one answering your question/pec problem

http://www.intensemuscle.com/31864-bringing-up-weak-body-parts-via-widowmakers.html

[/quote]

Very nice finds. I realize I haven’t been systematic enough in my exercise selection. Not bad but could be better.

I’m going to rotate in the pec deck. I probably haven’t done those in 10 years.

[quote]giterdone wrote:
I’m sure this is somewhere in the DC info but I can’t find it.

20 rep widows are working well for my quads. I did low reps (8x3 etc.) in the past and strength went up but it did jack for size gains.

So, since widows work for quads, what is the reason widows are not incorporated in some way for other muscle groups? For example, what would happen if you did a heavy set of smith inclines followed by a 20 rep widow rather than using the RP protocol.

[/quote]

The widowmakers aren’t done on the regular 2 way split for non quad body parts because you are really pushing the threshold of overtraining already as it is set up. Training as hard(all out to failure)…

as intensely(RP training) and as often(1.5 times more often than most) as possible. It’s a tight rope walk that you are trying to manage. Add another exercise and a strenuous one at that and you will likely tip over that threshold very fast.

9 week blasts become 4-5 week blasts… you aren’t progressing as fast and defeating much of the purpose. The point is 5 more lbs on the bar over time so you are are using 80 lbs more in the incline press at the end of the year… if doing an extra set interferes and you are only doing 45 lbs more… was it worth it?

Dante has guys on the more spread out 3 way split attack some bodyparts because that threshold is raised… frequency is less as well as less bodyparts hit per session so recovery should be slightly better this way, but you give up the frequency of bodyparts hit.

I’d have to do the math again but I believe the 2 way adds up to 15-20 more growth sessions a year than the 3 way… not a ton but they add up.

The 2 way split is where it’s at for overall growth… the 3 way is for guys who can take a hit in overall growth if it means some more lat width, better hang to their triceps or hamstrings etc.

3.25 lbs/inch being able to see abs still is Dante’s cutoff for advanced enough for the 3 way, otherwise make the 2 way work and pick the right exercises to bring up bodyparts.

[quote]giterdone wrote:

I feel my chest is lagging somewhat, nothing catastrophic, and was wondering what options there were while still staying within DC. I’m not huge but I want to stay proportional as I grow. [/quote]

What chest and triceps moves are you rotating?

hmmm i would think it would be possible, depending on what movements u are doing. widowmakers for squats work because of all the muscles u are using to draw from, i guess what i’m trying to say is i’d imagine i’d be hard to do these with say skullcrushers or barbell curls, just because these are more iso moves and ur muscles will become too fatigued to continue. i’m assuming ur talking about them in the sense where you take a 12RM and do 20 reps with that weight? i’d like to articulate myself better but i’m a lil buzzed soooo nothing’s really coming out very intelligently, but u should catch my drift

[quote]Scott M wrote:

The widowmakers aren’t done on the regular 2 way split for non quad body parts because you are really pushing the threshold of overtraining already as it is set up.

otherwise make the 2 way work and pick the right exercises to bring up bodyparts. [/quote]

I always appreciate the thought (and time) you put into your posts.

The recovery issue makes sense. I am in my 40’s and have found that I need to be mindful of how close I am to the threshold.

It is clear that being diligent about picking the right exercises is the way to go.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
giterdone wrote:

I feel my chest is lagging somewhat, nothing catastrophic, and was wondering what options there were while still staying within DC. I’m not huge but I want to stay proportional as I grow.

What chest and triceps moves are you rotating?[/quote]

The biggest issue with my chest is upper and inner thickness. I am lacking some meat across the top (collarbone area). I have ignored it for the most part just focussing on growing and assuming it will come up as overall mass increases. But, it still lags.

Chest rotation recently has been low incline DB, incline smith, flat DB.
Triceps has been skull crush, dips, close grip smith

Dante’s pec deck chest exercise sounds like it might be an option. Not sure if I should just rotate it in or use it exclusively for a number of weeks as outlined in the IM link.

Reverse grip bench are tough on my wrists. I think I should take out the skull crushers and add something that hits chest as well.

Any thoughts? I know this is getting off the widowmaker topic and there is already a DC thread. Not sure if that matters to anybody.

[quote]giterdone wrote:
Scott M wrote:
giterdone wrote:

I feel my chest is lagging somewhat, nothing catastrophic, and was wondering what options there were while still staying within DC. I’m not huge but I want to stay proportional as I grow.

What chest and triceps moves are you rotating?

The biggest issue with my chest is upper and inner thickness. I am lacking some meat across the top (collarbone area). I have ignored it for the most part just focussing on growing and assuming it will come up as overall mass increases. But, it still lags.

Chest rotation recently has been low incline DB, incline smith, flat DB.
Triceps has been skull crush, dips, close grip smith

Dante’s pec deck chest exercise sounds like it might be an option. Not sure if I should just rotate it in or use it exclusively for a number of weeks as outlined in the IM link.

Reverse grip bench are tough on my wrists. I think I should take out the skull crushers and add something that hits chest as well.

Any thoughts? I know this is getting off the widowmaker topic and there is already a DC thread. Not sure if that matters to anybody.

[/quote]

Why don’t we just continue this discussion in the DC thread? You could also post over at IM in the puppy pound area and hear from the DC vets (and Dante, possibly) themselves.

I do have some… I’ll copy and paste this into the DC thread to keep things consolidated. If we stick to our look niche on the board people won’t get into arguments, having separate threads opens up the forum for “DC sucks!” and that’s a waste of time.