T Nation

Wide Shoulders: Question


#1

Can you build wide ass shoulders if you're very strong on the dumbbell shoulder press PLUS heavy rear delt training?

So my question is essentially this: If you're very strong on dumbbell shoulder press OR behind the neck press, can you get PRETTY WELL DEVELOPED side delts too?


#2

What’s wrong with side raises?


#3

Well apparently it works for calisthenics trainees, given how developed their shoulders look. I’m curious if you can have well developed side delts (ie broad delts) if all you do is heavy behind the neck/overhead presses and heavy rear delt work

I do side raises AND upright rows and I think I have FINALLY gotten their right so I don’t have a problem with them, I do them lying on the floor with cables (D handles in the case of upright rows) and side raises, I do them lying on a 45 degree incline bench, the movement starts from behind my back and I raise the DBs to shoulder level


#4

Did you really need to make two threads examining the intricacies of basically doing overhead pressing and side raises?


#5

I’m sure some people can. Try it and find out.


#6

[quote]cparker wrote:
Did you really need to make two threads examining the intricacies of basically doing overhead pressing and side raises?[/quote]
Seriously.

Add in a third thread a week and half ago again asking about laterals, and his roll last year with five threads in two weeks all asking about chest work. Dude seems due for his yearly overanalysis thread spree.

Bigs, to increase any muscle’s size maximally, the majority of people will need to train that muscle directly. With that said, “only” pressing could be the choice for some people depending on the lifter’s specific goal, overall training plan, and individual size (limb length, height/weight, etc).

And Bigs, you might think this is unrelated, but what’s your current bodyweight and strength on the basic lifts (squat, deadlift, flat bench, row, overhead press)?


#7

Lol.

I told you that all you need to do during a side raise is:

  1. Depress your scapular/shrug downwards as you raise the dumbbells.

  2. Flex your side delts at the bottom, keep them flexed and squeeze them at the top.

15 year old kids in training in the 90s in S.E Asia could grasp this concept. What is so hard about it that you need to look for all sorts of funky variations, watch multiple videos and look for lessons in biomechanics to DO FUCKING SIDE RAISES?


#8

Before I broke my toe (finally just recovered from that injury), my squat was 160 kg raw, deadlift was 200 kg and bench was 100 kg, still weak as hell that was, I think.

My aesthetics is fucked big time, so I REALLY REALLY need to lose weight and correct my shoulder and lat width along with my arms and stuff… duh

I weight 85 kg for the time being, will get it down to 70 kg sooner or later, I want to lose all the annoying fat on my stomach :confused:

Guys the only reason why I posted this is because I had a weak mind muscle connection with my side delts but now that I’ve realized where I’m supposed to feel the side raises I can now go start capping my delts. The only problem I had was with side delts so I’m looking forward to fixing my aesthetics.

But seriously, I’ve read that a man who can OHP press 1.5x his bodyweight is going to have some nice and developed delts. Isn’t this true, it seems?

And guys I’m sorry but the second reason I made this thread is that side raises are said to be one of the hardest exercises to do because most people screw it up anyway.
I just wanted to make sure.


#9

Odds are, if you feel a muscle being worked, you are most likely working that muscle. It tends to not be much more complicated than that.

I find that the issue many people have when trying to build muscle is focusing too much on the amount of weight being lifted instead of stimulating the muscle. I use 10lbs for lateral raises, and can strict press 250lbs at a 200lb bodyweight.

If your goal is to have better lateral delts, I feel like it would be better to focus more on lateral raises and less on pressing 1.5x bodyweight. IF, however, your goal is to press 1.5x bodyweight, you should pursue that.


#10

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
Before I broke my toe (finally just recovered from that injury), my squat was 160 kg raw, deadlift was 200 kg and bench was 100 kg, still weak as hell that was, I think.

My aesthetics is fucked big time, so I REALLY REALLY need to lose weight and correct my shoulder and lat width along with my arms and stuff… duh[/quote]

You will not see shoulder definition no matter how big they are if your bodyfat percentage is too high. Your lats will also look narrower if your midsection is too big.

DO NOT drop weight abruptly. You will lose muscle. Maintain your weight for a few months while replacing the crap in your diet with proper food choices.

I’ll say it again. Learn how to FLEX THEM and squeeze them at the top. This takes time. This is not about technique, it is about MMC.

Do something like this:

Side Raises
4 x 12-16
Raise dumbbells and squeeze at the top for 2sec and lower them slowly keeping tension on the delts for 6-8 reps, then without letting go of the dumbbells do normal reps for 6-8 reps. You can cheat for the normal reps as you fatigue during later sets but you must keep your traps DOWN. Do not think about lifting the dumbbells. Think about raising your delts.

Not necessarily.

[quote]And guys I’m sorry but the second reason I made this thread is that side raises are said to be one of the hardest exercises to do because most people screw it up anyway.
I just wanted to make sure.[/quote]

No. This is not true. Don’t listen to all the bullshit being repeated online. People screw up lots of exercises.

If you can FLEX YOUR SIDE DELTS, you can target them. Learn to do that. All the other variations won’t work if you can’t do the fundementals.


#11

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Odds are, if you feel a muscle being worked, you are most likely working that muscle. It tends to not be much more complicated than that.

I find that the issue many people have when trying to build muscle is focusing too much on the amount of weight being lifted instead of stimulating the muscle. I use 10lbs for lateral raises, and can strict press 250lbs at a 200lb bodyweight.

If your goal is to have better lateral delts, I feel like it would be better to focus more on side pressing and less on pressing 1.5x bodyweight. IF, however, your goal is to press 1.5x bodyweight, you should pursue that.[/quote]
Thanks for the post! Excuse my ignorance, however, but… What exactly is side pressing?

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
Before I broke my toe (finally just recovered from that injury), my squat was 160 kg raw, deadlift was 200 kg and bench was 100 kg, still weak as hell that was, I think.

My aesthetics is fucked big time, so I REALLY REALLY need to lose weight and correct my shoulder and lat width along with my arms and stuff… duh[/quote]

You will not see shoulder definition no matter how big they are if your bodyfat percentage is too high. Your lats will also look narrower if your midsection is too big.

DO NOT drop weight abruptly. You will lose muscle. Maintain your weight for a few months while replacing the crap in your diet with proper food choices.

I’ll say it again. Learn how to FLEX THEM and squeeze them at the top. This takes time. This is not about technique, it is about MMC.

Do something like this:

Side Raises
4 x 12-16
Raise dumbbells and squeeze at the top for 2sec and lower them slowly keeping tension on the delts for 6-8 reps, then without letting go of the dumbbells do normal reps for 6-8 reps. You can cheat for the normal reps as you fatigue during later sets but you must keep your traps DOWN. Do not think about lifting the dumbbells. Think about raising your delts.

Not necessarily.

[quote]And guys I’m sorry but the second reason I made this thread is that side raises are said to be one of the hardest exercises to do because most people screw it up anyway.
I just wanted to make sure.[/quote]

No. This is not true. Don’t listen to all the bullshit being repeated online. People screw up lots of exercises.

If you can FLEX YOUR SIDE DELTS, you can target them. Learn to do that. All the other variations won’t work if you can’t do the fundementals.[/quote]

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
Before I broke my toe (finally just recovered from that injury), my squat was 160 kg raw, deadlift was 200 kg and bench was 100 kg, still weak as hell that was, I think.

My aesthetics is fucked big time, so I REALLY REALLY need to lose weight and correct my shoulder and lat width along with my arms and stuff… duh[/quote]

You will not see shoulder definition no matter how big they are if your bodyfat percentage is too high. Your lats will also look narrower if your midsection is too big.

DO NOT drop weight abruptly. You will lose muscle. Maintain your weight for a few months while replacing the crap in your diet with proper food choices.

I’ll say it again. Learn how to FLEX THEM and squeeze them at the top. This takes time. This is not about technique, it is about MMC.

Do something like this:

Side Raises
4 x 12-16
Raise dumbbells and squeeze at the top for 2sec and lower them slowly keeping tension on the delts for 6-8 reps, then without letting go of the dumbbells do normal reps for 6-8 reps. You can cheat for the normal reps as you fatigue during later sets but you must keep your traps DOWN. Do not think about lifting the dumbbells. Think about raising your delts.

Not necessarily.

[quote]And guys I’m sorry but the second reason I made this thread is that side raises are said to be one of the hardest exercises to do because most people screw it up anyway.
I just wanted to make sure.[/quote]

No. This is not true. Don’t listen to all the bullshit being repeated online. People screw up lots of exercises.

If you can FLEX YOUR SIDE DELTS, you can target them. Learn to do that. All the other variations won’t work if you can’t do the fundementals.[/quote]
Yes, I’ve already learned to do side raises strictly and properly fortunately. Thank you nonetheless.

What’s the reason behind you saying being able to OHP 1.5x your bodyweight won’t make your side delts develop significantly along with your front delts?


#12

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
Thanks for the post! Excuse my ignorance, however, but… What exactly is side pressing?

[/quote]

Meant to write “lateral raise”. Lost my head.


#13

The question is, why do you think you need to bring your OHP up to that level to get good side delts? Just use your common sense.

How many people have you seen OHPing 1.5 times their bodyweight?

How many people have you seen with good side delts who don’t OHP 1.5 times their bodyweight?


#14

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]cparker wrote:
[/quote]

Add in a third thread a week and half ago again asking about laterals,

[/quote]

yup, third thread having already recieved solid advice = ungrateful asshole


#15

I have a hard time picturing the trainee who could use to lose nearly 18% of their bodyweight, by their own admission, but is concerned with the minutiae of side delt training. This baffles me.

Bigger picture time.


#16

[quote]dt79 wrote:

The question is, why do you think you need to bring your OHP up to that level to get good side delts? Just use your common sense.

How many people have you seen OHPing 1.5 times their bodyweight?

How many people have you seen with good side delts who don’t OHP 1.5 times their bodyweight?[/quote]

The point of me saying someone capable of OHPing 1.5 times their bodyweight having really good side delts wasn’t that I think I NEED to be able to OHP 1.5 x my bodyweight for reps, but to indicate that I think that by getting strong (and stronger) at OHP, one will also increase their side delt development in the process significantly. Isn’t that true?

Not trying to be an asshole and cunt, but isn’t that true? I really do care about your opinion and experience, dt79. Look at calisthenics people: I think all they do for delts is mainly bodyweight shoulder press, no?

"yup, third thread having already recieved solid advice = ungrateful asshole"
Sorry bro, I owe you one, but I do masturbate to getting more and more info. srs

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
I have a hard time picturing the trainee who could use to lose nearly 18% of their bodyweight, by their own admission, but is concerned with the minutiae of side delt training. This baffles me.

Bigger picture time.[/quote]

I’m a skinny fat sack of shit. I think I could build a little bit of muscle in the meantime. Am I wrong?


#17

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
I think that by getting strong (and stronger) at OHP, one will also increase their side delt development in the process significantly. Isn’t that true?
[/quote]
Making a muscle stronger across a variety of rep ranges with an appropriate nutrition program will make you significantly bigger, true story.

[quote]

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
I have a hard time picturing the trainee who could use to lose nearly 18% of their bodyweight, by their own admission, but is concerned with the minutiae of side delt training. This baffles me.

Bigger picture time.[/quote]

I’m a skinny fat sack of shit. I think I could build a little bit of muscle in the meantime. Am I wrong?[/quote]

  1. That attitude isn’t helping anyone, certainly not yourself. Describing yourself as a “skinny fat sack of shit” shows far deeper psychological problems than a misunderstanding of the basics of training.

  2. In what meantime? The phrase “in the meantime” implies that you are currently engaged in chasing another primary goal, what, specifically is it?

  3. If your physique leaves as much to be desired as you seem to believe, it baffles me that your side delts are so high up your list of priorities. I don’t want to try and choose your goals for you, but if I was you, I would be focussing on the basics of nutrition and training first before you worry about side delt development.


#18

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
The point of me saying someone capable of OHPing 1.5 times their bodyweight having really good side delts wasn’t that I think I NEED to be able to OHP 1.5 x my bodyweight for reps, but to indicate that I think that by getting strong (and stronger) at OHP, one will also increase their side delt development in the process significantly. Isn’t that true?

Not trying to be an asshole and cunt, but isn’t that true? I really do care about your opinion and experience, dt79. Look at calisthenics people: I think all they do for delts is mainly bodyweight shoulder press, no?
[/quote]

The issue is that many people turn overhead pressing into a standing incline press once the weight gets heavy. Another issue is that low reps simply won’t work for some people’s shoulder muscles. Chad Waterbury is a big believer in compound movements yet he will tell you that the fastest way to bigger delts will be 100 lateral raises every day. Calisthenics guys do loads of things, but you know what seems like the main difference compared to a gym rat? Tension. The average dude pressing a barbell overhead will jerk it up and down like a teenager’s hips on his first time. If you do this with handstands, you’ll end up with a concussion.

None of this is intended to steer you away from compound movements. The three things I would like you to take away from this post are:

  1. Lose fat without losing muscle. You won’t have any v taper at that bf percentage; also, I doubt you could see any changes in your delts right now.
  2. Do overhead presses, then throw in 2-3 controlled sets of lateral raises in twice a week. Best of both worlds. You can have your cake and eat it (well, not literally. Seriously, don’t eat cake for the next year).
  3. Be patient and realise that those details you worry about will make a 2% difference. Get the basics right first.

#19

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
Look at calisthenics people: I think all they do for delts is mainly bodyweight shoulder press, no? [/quote]

What do you mean by “calisthenics people”? I was in the military. I’ve not seen people develop good side delts doing mainly calisthenics, unless they were born with good delts to begin with.

Are you talking about gymnasts? Do you know how young these guys start out and how many hours they train a day for YEARS? It’s not just the bodyweight shoulder pressing that develops their delts. It’s the multiple angles plus the use of the delts to support their bodyweight in other non-delt dominant movements. Are you intending to do gymnastics full-time?

This is a stupid argument usually used by authors to prove a nonsensical point to sell their “unique” programs, made for special snowflakes who somehow just can’t respond to things that almost everyone who has gotten big has done.

In your best interest, I would advise you to stop reading articles and just get in the gym and find some big guys to train with.

EDIT.

Btw, I’m not giving you shit nor talking down to you. I’m just worried about your thought process when it comes to all this. Overthinking a simple thing like this is how people spin their wheels for years and then come to the conclusion that they’re hardgainers. Don’t be one of them.


#20

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]GetBigs wrote:
Look at calisthenics people: I think all they do for delts is mainly bodyweight shoulder press, no? [/quote]

What do you mean by “calisthenics people”? I was in the military. I’ve not seen people develop good side delts doing mainly calisthenics, unless they were born with good delts to begin with.
[/quote]

He’s talking about guys like Hannibal - you know, guys who’ve been training productively for about 10-20 years. As I said, nothing comes fast. Deal with it.