T Nation

Why Would Anyone Take Two Estrogen Blockers at Once?


#1

If anyone follows the UFC, you have seen Jon Jones tested positive for clomiphene and also letrozole taken from two different samples. I understand someone would use either of these at the end of a cycle to help their natural levels or whatever... but is it common to be taking two different ones that are basically the same?? or are they the same? Figured the best answers would come from t-nation.

i apologize if this thread exists already.


#2

they're two different drugs, with two different mechanisms.

There's lots of reasons why you'd take both.


#3

easy enough. I just skimmed over some wiki online and saw that they were being used for the same things.... Thanks for the info


#4

I'd really like to know what traction think of this, was Jones in TRT or cycling or tainted supp? So many I'll informed opions out there, parading as knowing all


#5

TRT?

do you mean PCT?


#6

i'm surprised how many UFC guys are testing positive lately.... i knew that a lot used, but i'm surprised what they're testing positive for, and that some have so many tainted supplements.

if you're undergoing USADA testing, then it's pretty fucking dumb to take clomid, since the half-life is so long....

i was really impressed with the strategies that Lance Armstrong's team used (a good read on that is "The Secret Race") and think that most athletes would be well served to follow their recommendations....


#7

is the actual protocol and ways they beat drug tests actually published somewhere?


#8

not that i'm aware of... but he does explain some of the ways they got around tests (microdosing, nighttime dosing, IV's, etc).

i'm curious if there are some more sophisticated masking agents used anymore (generally they used to use diuretics), or if they even waste time with that...

i'm surprised to see athletes testing positive for GHRP 6 and MK677.... as far as i know, they still don't have a solid hGH test yet....


#9

Can we go back to the topic guys, I really want to know what the opinion of t nation is on why he popped for those two things, does it mean he was cycling, trt or what? What was he up to?

MMA forums know MMA but they don't know this sort of stuff like T Nation does


#10

he was clearly using them for PCT. you can't have a TUE for TRT in the UFC anymore.


#11

What's TUE?

And any idea what sort of cycle he was on?

No chance it was tainted supp?


#12

Therapeutic Use Exemption. fighters used to be able to get an exemption to be on TRT, but not any longer.

he was likely on a basic tesosterone cycle, as that would provide pretty much everything he would need as a fighter.

it's possible he had a tainted supplement..... but any athlete making the kind of money as him should be getting his supplements tested to ensure that they don't have banned substances in them.

^however, he's had goofy bloodwork come up before which raised suspicion in a lot of people, so i doubt it's a supplement issue.


#13

TUE = therapeutic use exemption. Basically the give you an exemption if the drug is used for legitimate medical purposes, however it typically refers to TRT. Many MMA athletes were on TRT despite being in their 20s and 30s...likely because of long term steroid abuse. it was a joke, and the athletic commissions came to their senses and banned them.

Typically the athletic commissions were doing basic panel test (testing for only 20 substances, randomized) and focusing on elevated T/E levels, I don't even think they were testing for ancillary/PCT or AI drugs. I think many of the fighters were simply using water based test suspensions, and dosing carefully.

Fairly recently, they started instituting "blood passports" meaning they would track your levels over a series of tests. In the case of Jon Jones, they tested him once, and his T levels were relatively normal. Next test soon after, they were incredibly low, with unexplained T/E ratio (though withing the 6.1 limit), suggesting exogenous test. I believe that since he was managing his dosing/ levels effectively, and perhaps monitoring his own bloodwork, they moved on to more and more agressive panels focused on AIs and PCT drugs. USADA also has anonymous snitch hotlines, with pursue a known users training partners, etc. They are pretty slick.

To answer the original question, Jon Jones was almost certainly taking short acting test shots - google his name with bodybuilding and you will see how he packed on 20-30 pounds of pure muscle, overnight, when he took on powerlifting during his latest suspension. He was taking the Letro as an Aromatase Inhibitor to prevent side effects, and Clomid for PCT. A person VERY well informed on the topic told me that he believes that they just started utilizing greatly advanced tests that can detect metabolites much longer than previous methods. This would explain the sudden influx of positive tests.

I am relatively new AAS, and have actually never cycled (yet :slight_smile: So please feel free to correct me if any of my information here is incorrect.


#14

well, USADA has tested for the typical PCT compounds (SERMs, AIs, etc) for a while.

to get caught using clomid now is pretty dumb, unless the athlete was hoping that they would overlook the test.... there's simply too much out of competition testing to assume one could get away with it...


#15

I think they (USADA), as well as athletic commissions and other sanctioning bodies, were previously using a test that could detect Clomid, for example for 14 days, then all of a sudden they started using a test that extended that detection period out to 30 days. There has got to be a good reason why, all of a sudden, two HUGE mma stars, with access to the best experts in the PED field, tested positive (stupidly, as you point out), for the same garden variety PCT drug one week apart.


#16

hmm... i'll have to do more digging into that. the half-life of comid is around 5 days, so to be detectable at 30 days doesn't seem that surprising, really.


#17

I also found it quite interested that the USADA tests only look for 20 different compounds in any given test, I would have figured they test for a lot more.


#18

Cool guys, great info

If anyone else has an opinion re: chances it was a tainted supp, would love to hear it

Jones's mental state after the whole 'hitting a pregnant lady when drunk and fleeing from the scene' thing never sat well with me, he was always so over the top nice in public, like a good-Christian reformed-con act, wouldn't be surprised if he's bullshitting on this too


#19

what would be the benefit of hiding clomid in a supplement? Or do they just get tainted during the manufacturing process by mistake?


#20

I doubt there are any supplements laced with clomid. And for a mistake like this to happen, they would have to be manufacturing clomid at the same place. The probability of these supplements being manufactured at a facility licensed to manufacturer drugs like clomid is low.

Maybe he was taking it for fertility, with letro to control estrogen sides so he didn't cry like a baby every time he watched Mickey's death scene in Rocky 3.

Stop laughing.

Alright, alright, there are various reasons to take clomid. One is, of course, during PCT. Another could be to raise his testosterone levels without the use of steroids. That would still be against the rules though.