Why Trump Will "Succeed"

[Jewbacca]

@pfury

Would you say Judaism has NOT undergone immense fundamental changes surrounding nearly every aspect of society since it’s creation? People adapt. As religions are made up of people, the more time goes on the more they tend to stray from the original.

Not a lot, no.

While, sure, we’ve had plenty of heretics and branches off over the millennia (who eventually cease to be Jewish – see generally, Nazarines), we know (as we believed), thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls, that very little, if any of the Tanakh (the whole Bible, less the Nazarine’s additions) has changed for ~2100 years, down to specific spellings and page brakes.

Hence why the perfect copying of scrolls. And while the older documents (going back to 1500BCE) are exceptionally rare, we do have a copy of the Shema (the core statement of Judaism) from that time period.

Similarly, the Talmud (which was oral until Babylonia and so does have largely stylistic differences between versions that were created thousands of miles and many years apart) is remarkably similar in all its versions.

So, faith aside, yes, there is extremely persuasive evidence that Judaism has not changed in any meaningful way.

So, no, the core beliefs and practices of Orthodox Judaism have not changed.

Sure there are new things to deal with like the Internet to turkeys (is it kosher? – yes) to elevators, but the guiding principals have remained.

But, yes, I agree the power of society-at-large is great. Hence, why my people are (and believe we are directed to be) “a people apart.” We participate in society, but are not part of it.

It’s worked to preserve a core of us for 3600 years (going from Mt. Sinai, not even Abraham)-- that’s about 1,000 years before Buddha apparently walked the Earth, to put it in perspective.

And now a joke.

Q: What’s the difference between Donald Trump and a Reform Jewish woman?

A: Donald Trump has Jewish grandchildren.

[zecarlo]

@Jewbacca

So, faith aside, yes, there is extremely persuasive evidence that Judaism has not changed in any meaningful way.

So, no, the core beliefs and practices of Orthodox Judaism have not changed.

Yes, but you also needed to qualify Judaism with Orthodox. Many religions can claim there is an orthodox element within (Mel Gibson’s Catholicism is a well-known one) but when we go beyond the ideology and look at the actual practitioners it is clear that society has had an effect on how they believe and worship vs orthodox doctrine.

[pat]

@pfury

If bigotry can’t be legislated away, doesn’t it make perfect sense that protesting wouldn’t end with SCOTUS?

Removing legal road blocks is not the same as winning over people. That’s why you need laws, to force people to do or refrain from doing under penalty of government violence. People then must comply whether one likes it or not. It’s also why laws need not be easily made and the gridlock the system provides is necessary.

@pfury

Not a specific society, society in general. All religion bows to society over time. Or it eventually goes the way of the dodo.

No it doesn’t. History often shows the opposite happening.

[pfury]

@pat

No it doesn’t. History often shows the opposite happening.

History shows society outlasting every religion on the planet to date. The only exceptions are the religions that are yet to end.

This is an indisputable fact.

[pat]

The Roman Empire didn’t lose religion, it gain it. As in the Holy Roman Empire, via Charlemagne. And there was never a time in the Roman Empire where religion was not important, in fact they were afraid of it. That’s why they didn’t make Judaism illegal. They held a ‘just in case it’s true’ attittude

[pat]

@pfury

History shows society outlasting every religion on the planet to date. The only exceptions are the religions that are yet to end.

This is an indisputable fact.

Is it? Because I hate to break it to you, but most of the world is still religious, by a large margin, to the tune of 84%, give or a take a few percentage points. In the mean time many societies have come and gone. Even ones who sought to eradicate religion have fallen and religion remains. So, there is your indisputable fact.

[pfury]

@pat

Is it? Because I hate to break it to you, but most of the world is still religious, by a large margin, to the tune of 84%, give or a take a few percentage points. In the mean time many societies have come and gone. Even ones who sought to eradicate religion have fallen and religion remains. So, there is your indisputable fact.

Religion remains. ReligionS come and go. No religion exists today that came anywhere near existing when society started kicking off.

[pat]

You’re having to go back a loooong way, like 5000+ years back and honestly we don’t know much about what these ancients believed or didn’t believe save for what was written on walls and shards of pottery. Monotheism has been around for thousands of years and is not going away anytime soon. It even found it’s way into places it ought not to have been like ancient Greece. And it has survived many, many societies and still remains. The societies fell, the religion survived.
One of the fastest growing Christian populations is growing in a place where it is forbidden, China.
You can believe what you want,I don’t care. But the narrative that religion is transient and ‘society’ can or will end it, is just plain false. Religion is not going anywhere. It has survived the worst the world can throw at it and yet it remains. It has survived societies who tried to destroy it and it remains.

[pfury]

@pat

You can believe what you want,I don’t care. But the narrative that religion is transient and ‘society’ can or will end it, is just plain false.

Again, religion probably won’t end. ReligionS (bolding and capital for the 2nd time is very intentional) come and go.

That means while RELIGION (concept) will remain, religionS (-insert name of now extinct religion here-) will come and go.

[pat]

@pfury

Again, religion probably won’t end.

Well you said the opposite earlier. So we’re square as far as I am concerned.

[pat]

This made me think of this for some reason:

Pulp Fiction - Pigs are filthy animals

[SkyzykS]

People like hierarchies. Throw in some funny hats and you really have something.

Make rules about what people can eat and who they can have sex with and you’ve seized control of the majority of their biological imperatives.

Hang the chance at eternal life out there in front of them and you have them for life.

[pfury]

@pat

Well you said the opposite earlier. So we’re square as far as I am concerned.

Just another case of misunderstood verbiage. My stance hasn’t changed from earlier.

@pfury

Again, religion probably won’t end. ReligionS (bolding and capital for the 2nd time is very intentional) come and go.

@pfury

History shows society outlasting every religion on the planet to date. The only exceptions are the religions that are yet to end.

@pfury

Of course it will. No religion stands up to society in the long run.

[zecarlo]

@pat

The Roman Empire didn’t lose religion, it gain it. As in the Holy Roman Empire, via Charlemagne.

The Roman Empire had its religious beliefs. The Holy Roman Empire really isn’t a continuation of the Roman Empire.

@pat

That’s why they didn’t make Judaism illegal. They held a ‘just in case it’s true’ attittude

The ancient Romans allowed other religions to continue to exist because it was a useful tool to control populations.

[polo77j]

@SkyzykS

People like hierarchies. Throw in some funny hats and you really have something.

Fuck me this made me laugh harder than it should.

[SkyzykS]

@polo77j

Fuck me this made me laugh harder than it should.

Good!

I can be cynical as hell about organized religion, so I try to break it up a little with some humor.

I once got into an argument with a little guru type guy that liked to lead bible studies about who could read a book better. The lengths and breadths some people will go to put themselves above others in the name of God amazes me.

[anon71262119]

This has become a huge religion hijack. We’ve had many threads on the topic so this is it for me. In response to this comment…

@pfury

We’re never going to find a better motivator than ‘eternal damnation.’ I mean, it’s a pretty damn good motivator.

Please consider. This is a response I wrote in another thread when someone wrote, “…the reason most people consider God is simply due to fear, fear of the unknown, fear of damnation.”

@anon71262119

Why phrase this in a negative sense? Motivated by the negative emotion of fear. Why not faith motivated by hope, or optimism? Or motivated by seeking something that transcends the mundane human experience? That it is within humans to seek something profound, or as @treco so beautifully wrote about the human desire to to seek answers to the big questions, or to seek something greater than ourselves. This is a position of humility, which can be also be a character strength.

This focus on fear is a bit like a religious person saying “there are no atheists in foxholes,” as in fear gets us all in the end. There is a form of religious pride in that idea, right? Why assume that belief or lack of belief it necessarily tied to fear as a primary motivator? This idea makes the person who lacks belief more courageous? More able to bravely look into the void? There is a form of pride in this too, is there not? At least maybe be open to the idea that you’re describing “most” people of faith as weaker than yourself.

[zecarlo]

@anon71262119

Please consider. This is a response I wrote in another thread when someone wrote, “…the reason most people consider God is simply due to fear, fear of the unknown, fear of damnation.”

It’s the inability to accept indifference and randomness.

[Despade]

Hey that looks familiar! haha

[pfury]

@anon71262119

Please consider. This is a response I wrote in another thread when someone wrote, “…the reason most people consider God is simply due to fear, fear of the unknown, fear of damnation.”

I don’t necessarily view the damnation aspect as a “fear” for members of religion. For someone like me, the logical extension is a fear, as I do not have faith. For someone with faith, this would be a logical cause and effect of how you live your life.

People with faith (obviously speaking outside any expertise I have personally) would probably be much less likely to view something like the afterlife with “fear” and more as an “end goal.”