We’ll see. You have to maintain membership to survive. So far, Millenials overwhelmingly support gay rights but they aren’t pouring into Mainline Protestant churches, that I’m aware of. In fact, I believe it’s the opposite. The younger generation in these groups is leaving the church, becoming more secular. This is what I recall. Someone please correct me if you have different data.
Got it. Thanks for clarifying. I think we were talking past each other a bit, and I didn’t understand that.
It may be purely anecdotal, but in my immediate vicinity (medium metro city & suburbs), it almost feels like the churches are picking up steam re: gay acceptance. This may be to counteract some of what you speak of with Millennials not sticking with the church.
OTOH, when I’m back where I grew up in WV to visit family, it’s often as if absolutely nothing has changed from when I was 7 and didn’t know what being gay meant. So from my sample size of 1, I see a location aspect to it.
Nah I don’t blame you. I think a large part of the conflict from the New Age Atheists you speak of is the, let’s say, louder folks of the millennials. The majority of us simply want to leave religion alone, and more importantly want religion to leave us alone. But like any very passionate topic, it tends to be the louder and more aggressive people whom are heard most often.
Yes, but can you have the good you cite without the bad? Nazism was a religion. Communism under Stalin was a religion.
It’s not that they haven’t found a better way as much as they are too fragile to accept a better way. The very fact that you don’t even mention a god or if he even exists shows that his existence is irrelevant. If the only thing that can keep people together is a shared irrationality then that’s a sad commentary on humanity.
It’s because society IS fragile. Religion provides structure and stability. We’re never going to find a better motivator than ‘eternal damnation.’ I mean, it’s a pretty damn good motivator.
SOMETHING has to keep us going. Thousands of years has shown that we just generally thrive better when we have a purpose. The vast majority of people have a general need to have a purpose in life. Religion is just the engine driving that car (society).
What?
Are we back to talking about if humans can exist without some ideology? That some ideologies like communism or fascism are particularly disastrous, in that they’ve resulted in millions of dead? Agree. For sure.
Well, not exactly. I was trying to speak from a purely sociology of religion standpoint. Pragmatic functions in human societies. In that respect, it’s an academic discussion, not a theological one. @pfury is not a religious person, so we’re talking about it from an academic point of view.
He said “I RECENTLY ATTENDED THE WEDDING OF A GAY FRIEND OF MY WIFE’S. THEY WERE MARRIED IN A CATHOLIC CHURCH”
LOL. Yes he did. It’s just that statement can not be true. I guess I’m just curious about this church that performed the ceremony. I don’t care what two consenting adults want to do with each other, but I do care what’s labeled Catholic.
But it isn’t much of a deterrent either.
Fascism is an attitude, a method, not an ideology. If you look at ideologies they all have either descended into fascism or have that potential. Religion is not, and has not been, immune to that. So when people say “we” can’t exist without religion I interpret it as saying we can’t exist without fascism.
And if you remove “religion” something else will eventually take its place that will be, for all intents and purposes, a religion. Nazism was a religion, for example. Politics will become sacralized. Benjamin Franklin wrote about a “publik [sic] religion.” So I would ask if it’s a good thing that we have this innate tendency to revert, regress, devolve, to this type of thinking. And what does it say about us that we need this type of thinking?
I never bothered asking whether or not the ceremony was considered “full catholic” (full disclosure I don’t attend a ton of weddings, maybe 1-2 a year).
Kinda what I’m talking about though. You clearly don’t like the thought of a gay wedding in a catholic church in the event it’s somehow labelled catholic. All over the country people like you are being replaced with people who genuinely don’t care. Gays and Catholics are mixing at rates never seen before.
I’d bet all my litecoin that in 100 years this is going to be a topic where Catholics look back and go “wow wtf was everyone thinking.”
The key to religion is the “eternal damnation” part. It’s a hella good motivator, and quite frankly, no other method of keeping society in line is ever going to come close.
When a religion preaches “you must be a good person of spend infinity years burning in hell” (etcetc insert whatever happens with random religions here) it gives purpose to your life that extends beyond your old age years. Humans crave the shit out of purpose.
If true, I don’t think it is, then that’s a sad commentary on humanity. But I disagree as even the most religious people have done terrible things in spite of this eternal damnation.
Does religion really preach that? It preaches you must obey the laws of god, or else. The assumption is that what god demands must be good.
Communism under Stalin gave people a purpose as well in spite of not having eternal damnation. It gave a sense of order and kept people in line. It just needed Stalin.
You’re correct. I assumed it wasn’t an actual Catholic ceremony but was just curious. I have a friend who was married by a pastor who called himself “Old Catholic.” They weren’t married in a church and didn’t do any of the pre marriage counseling. But it appeased his family.
I hope not.
I never really thought to ask. We didn’t do communion that I remember but the priest still had us singing half the damn time. Those things bore the shit out of me.
I know. Religious people not wanting their religion to change is a pretty reliable constant throughout history.
That’s because religion without actual belief and practice is just a social club.
And ultimately that’s what it falls down to. The concept of faith makes people fundamentally incapable of expecting or thinking their religion is going to undergo massive change. If they thought their religion was going to undergo massive change, they wouldn’t actually have the faith their counterparts have.
Well that… and scripture. If you believe that your text contains the unchanging infallible word of God, it shouldn’t change with the times. This applies with all the major religions.
By performing gay marriages, churches are deciding to ignore those passages of scripture that forbid homosexuality. Those passages aren’t vague or subject to interpretation.
Eh and that’s what changes about religion. Everything’s subject to interpretation.
As an added bonus, every religion truly believes they’re the exception to the rules. That they’ll be the ones to remain constant the way no religion has before. And because the lifespans of religions greatly exceed anything we could ever hope to achieve as mere humans, it’s impossible to be proven right/wrong.
Imo that’s the real power of faith. Genuine belief, not only in the absence of “evidence,” but in spite of it.
Of course they are subject to interpretation. Where do they mention gay marriage? Or that officiating a gay marriage is a sin? Since when have sinners not been allowed in church?
It can also be called irrationality and it’s the same cognitive process that leads some to think Sandy Hook was faked, the Earth is flat or Jews have been conspiring to take over the world. Beliefs that are all followed by their various consequences.