T Nation

Why the Political Forum?

Maybe it’s spring fever. Maybe it’s the anticipation of the “Spring Cutter”. But for whatever reason, the political forum has been more than a little busy lately with debate.

Scratch that - it has been more than a little busy lately with fights. Whether it’s me and Moriarty, or JW and Elk, or vroom and his imaginary friends he made up while picking grass blades in left-field - there has been a decided escalation in the hostilities down here.

After reading all the whining going on wrt name calling, and label making - I just wonder why you come down and post here in the political forums.

Some want honest debate. That rarely, if ever actually occurs. Oh the intentions may be honorable, but be honest - How many of these threads have ended in plain ole word fights?

What’s the difference between this forum, and the others? You don’t see this level of animosity in the other forums very often. In fact - folks that fight like cats and dogs down here actually agree on most other subjects up top.

So why do you come down here?

I do it because:

a.)I live in a political desert - no discussion of currennt events whatsoever. unless you consider What type of seed to plant as current events.

b.)I love conflict. I love arguing.

c.)It actually relieves some stress to come down here and go postal.

You start the majority of the personal attacks if you hadn’t noticed.

I come to the political forum because I also like to debate. I think the best one we had was on religion, considering most involved, aside from one or two idiots, were able to express their opinions without acting like fools.

Beyond that, anything that has to do with Bush is naturally going to cause a more blatant increase in hostility. Why? Because literally half of the country thinks he is an idiot while the other half thinks he farts roses and shits cupcakes.

I think Boston Barrister is a great person to debate with. I have never had any problems with him personally even though we don’t always agree. The same can be said about thunder-boy. I just think BB’s method of presenting info is boring as hell.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have JeffR who I truly think is borderline retarded. Any thread he jumps into becomes immediately dumb and dumber. That is pretty much all I have to say about that. I won’t give that other member with the name of a dessert topping the pleasure of a mention.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You start the majority of the personal attacks if you hadn’t noticed.
[/quote]

That’s not true. I call bullshit more often than most, but the personal attacks flow quite freely on both sides - if you haven’t noticed.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You start the majority of the personal attacks if you hadn’t noticed.

I come to the political forum because I also like to debate. I think the best one we had was on religion, considering most involved, aside from one or two idiots, were able to express their opinions without acting like fools.

Beyond that, anything that has to do with Bush is naturally going to cause a more blatant increase in hostility. Why? Because literally half of the country thinks he is an idiot while the other half thinks he farts roses and shits cupcakes.

I think Boston Barrister is a great person to debate with. I have never had any problems with him personally even though we don’t always agree. The same can be said about thunder-boy. I just think BB’s method of presenting info is boring as hell.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have JeffR who I truly think is borderline retarded. Any thread he jumps into becomes immediately dumb and dumber. That is pretty much all I have to say about that. I won’t give that other member with the name of a dessert topping the pleasure of a mention.[/quote]

Very good thread rainjack!

We might find part of the reason for hostility in Professors post. In his short little rant he managed to spew out several personal insults:

“aside from one or two idiots.”

“without acting like fools.”

“Because literally half of the country thinks he (Bush) is an idiot.”

“JeffR who I truly think is borderline retarded.”

“Any thread he jumps into becomes immediately dumb and dumber.”

There is far too much of this in the political forum. Because you happen to disagree with someone does not make them, bad, stupid, idiotic, an ass clown, or any other childish term that you can muster. I also doubt that Professor or any of the others who are constantly using personal attacks (sorry Prof but you are the King of the personal attack around here) would do that if they were debating face to face?

Don’t get on the muscle either Prof you would avoid that sort of behavior not because you are afraid of anyone. You (and others) wouldn’t do it because it’s simply bad form, and socially unacceptable! (unless you hang out with street thugs-which I doubt any of us do).

The Professor may not want a forum which avoids personal attacks. He may like that sort of conflict, many do. Personally, I think the forum is far more attractive when it’s kept above personal insults. However, those like the Professor often resort to personal name calling frequently.

That doesn’t mean that you can’t attack someones point, or even accuse them of posturing etc. However, when you call someone childish names I think you have really sunken to about as low a point as you possible can relative to internet chat.

(Gee, I wonder if I’ll get called names because of this post…LOL)

I try to stick to theory, which is where my interests really lie.

As far an name calling goes, any time you get into the “real world” of politics, there seem to automatically be “adversaries” that emerge. Adherents to a view generally believe that their view is correct, rather than one solution among many that happens to be more preferable (or advantageous) to them.

As such, opposition to that view is considered an attack rooted not in an alternative “value system,” but rather in direct ignorance of “accepted” and “well-understood” principles. So an opponent is viewed almost in a religious context; he has wilfully rejected the truth, cleaving instead to baser desires.

Whether those desires are political power, wealth, or sexual laxity, it doesn’t matter. It’s inevitable, then, that people lash out at one another.

And sometimes, someone else just says something really, really dumb that just forces you to call them a dumbass.

We can tell this by how much you stir up debates that might otherwise settle down into reasonable discussions.

Yes, I know, its all about what you want right?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

(Gee, I wonder if I’ll get called names because of this post…LOL)
[/quote]

What post?

The seeds of interest for me truly lie in being interested in what is going on in our country. That is what initially draws me to the political threads also being interested in a title that I see.

Iraq could turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to world history or for the people of the middle east and us. The fact that I have to realize is that I am not the all knowing, I cannot discount that possibility.

But, even if it does turn out that way, I will never believe that Bush, or Cheney, or Rumsfeld, or the other affiliates took that action out of their love of humanity and caring about whether people live in democracy and freedom or not.

In the big picture, I believe they thought it would be a good strategic move and ensure a power hold in the middle east and as another benefit it would allow friends in corporate America lucrative possibilities and profits. I think they see the average American as fodder for their desires.

That in and of itself (profits for America) would be a good thing even thought corporate America would never share those profits with the average middle class American. So, the thing that really bothers me is you have a group of the top one percent of Americans reaping the profits off of the blood of the common man and disguising it under the banner of “we care so much and want to spread freedom,”. Also these same architects of war wouldn’t go when they were needed (cheney, bush, wolfewitz, Rove) they had other priorities.

So, to me the cost to benefit of this war cost= thousands of lives for all involved. Benefit=Very unclear at this point. Wasn’t worth going it. As far as the terrorist excuse, I don’t think we are any safer then if we would have just tightened up security like we have after 9/11. The only good thing that I could see coming out of this for the average American is if we successfully establish a military power-base that would ensure safety and peace for again the average american.

Without this war I probably wouldn’t even post in the political threads too much, but I am so opposed to what I explained above that it compels me to get involved. I do think that Cheney and company are dishonorable people and they get no admiration from me what so ever.

The people that I get pissed at in these forums are the ones who spew a lot of idiotic nonsense i.e. jw, veg, not so much jeffy anymore he just makes me laugh. Fairs fair they proly have the same opinion of me!

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You start the majority of the personal attacks if you hadn’t noticed.

That’s not true. I call bullshit more often than most, but the personal attacks flow quite freely on both sides - if you haven’t noticed.

[/quote]

no suprises here of course, but I’ve gotta say Professor X-Cyr is dead wrong. Most of the personal attacks flow from him and his little friends, who can’t go even one post without saying something hateful about someone.

[quote]vroom wrote:
b.)I love conflict. I love arguing.

We can tell this by how much you stir up debates that might otherwise settle down into reasonable discussions.

Yes, I know, its all about what you want right?[/quote]

Serious question, vroom:
do you really really believe everything you say?

and

don’t you ever get tired of being the only perfect guy in the room?

:wink:

luv ya, bro!

Rain,

Good thread.

This may surprise some of my fans (POX, BrotherE, RSU) but I am actually testing my ideas.

Most people don’t give me an honest discussion to my face.

That is the beauty of the internet. I appreciate the anonymity.

I want to let my liberal friends in on a little secret: Sometimes your outright hostility indicates that I have hit close to the mark.

I am aware that I like to hurl insults with the best of them, sometimes I am trully testing your conviction and the tone of your responses can be very revealing.

JeffR

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I try to stick to theory, which is where my interests really lie.

As far an name calling goes, any time you get into the “real world” of politics, there seem to automatically be “adversaries” that emerge. Adherents to a view generally believe that their view is correct, rather than one solution among many that happens to be more preferable (or advantageous) to them.

As such, opposition to that view is considered an attack rooted not in an alternative “value system,” but rather in direct ignorance of “accepted” and “well-understood” principles. So an opponent is viewed almost in a religious context; he has wilfully rejected the truth, cleaving instead to baser desires.

Whether those desires are political power, wealth, or sexual laxity, it doesn’t matter. It’s inevitable, then, that people lash out at one another.

And sometimes, someone else just says something really, really dumb that just forces you to call them a dumbass.[/quote]

There it is! That last paragraph.

Some people just go out of their way to start/create conflict, and being the macho, over T’d guys we pretend to be over the net, we respond in kind.

It’s just impossible to limit it to those that really care. Who cares anyways? It’s alot more fun this way, and truth be told, if you are going seriously one on one with a particular individual, that can still be accomplished.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Serious question, vroom:
do you really really believe everything you say?

and

don’t you ever get tired of being the only perfect guy in the room?

:wink:

luv ya, bro![/quote]

Excuse me! He is most certainly not the only one

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Most of the personal attacks flow from him and his little friends, who can’t go even one post without saying something hateful about someone.
[/quote]

Why do my friends have to be “little”? That sounds like an attack to me. I cry foul. Foul! Hypocrite.

This thread is gonna be awesome!

Couple of reasons for me.

I live in a very liberal area so I argue with Lefties all the time. Most of the time I enjoy the arguments and debate here. In general I think it is good natured and competitive.

I think in the beginning of this site and on this board the nature of the arguments were a little more broad. I also think the types of “insults” were more humorous and were exchanged between guys who had a little more respect for each other. I’d like to think that is still the case but in many instances, it is not.

This board, in particular, has a core group of regulars and a large group of occasional posters. I enjoy the debate and the arguments. The fanatic fringe guys get a little boring, particularly if the subject matter is a little out there.

Ultimately for me I like to discuss politics and there is a lot going on these days so we are lucky to live in “interesting times”.

As for the personal attacks. I try not to go first but I am sure I do on occasion. I try to limit it but this ain’t the Estrogen site. I am sure we could all benefit from a little self policing in that area. If someone is a real asshole I’d like to think, and would suggest, that we all ignore him.

Seriously you guys all rule in your own way.

Anyways, I like many of the same things, I learn quite a bit here, and after going through some of these arguments, and reading everyones points, I can pretty easily tear any of my friends limb from limb in a political argument.

I like to get into it with people too, I generally don’t start with name calling or something, but if someone doesn’t take me seriously or mocks me (elk) I am gonna call em on it and ask for thier side. I do tend to get a little caught up in it sometimes but it’s usually if i’m having a sub par day otherwise.

Also, none of my friends will wrestle me or race me in a footrace so I have to mix it up with the boys in some manner, lest I lose my competitive drive and fighting spirit.

and what nep said.

V

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why do my friends have to be “little”? That sounds like an attack to me. I cry foul. Foul! Hypocrite.[/quote]

Compared to you Prof - most everyone is a little friend - if not that, then a hell of a lot smaller.

Let me ask you guys this -

Do you enter the political forum knowing or, at the very least, expecting that there will be a fight?

Do you carry that same attitude with you into the other forums here?

It seems to me that all of the ‘regulars’ down here expect a fight to some degree. I do. I think it’s like Nephorm said - I just feel like calling someone a dumbass.

With the exception of ProfX, and his “eat more, lift more” mantra - I see very few of ‘us’ even approaching flamer status when we go up stairs. Excepting the occasional troll, or Al Jr.-types.

I know RJ started this thread to ask why people DO post here, but for me, I can answer a little bit with why I DON’T - only because in most places on the 'Net where there is any kind of debate on topics that can run to the more heated side, it just tends to degrade into the mindless name-calling and juvenile insults people are complaining of in all of the above posts.

I genuinely love to debate topics, I love history, I was a politics major in college and went to law school, so debating these kinds of topics is right up my alley. I just find the sophomoric antics that tend to occur too often just a waste of my time and energy. I think most of the guys I’ve seen post on here thus far (RJ, JW, Prof X, sasquatch) are people I admire quite a bit and enjoy reading what you have to say, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. You have well-thought out positions and tend to have a smartass sense of humor I like.

So I guess I’m curious then as to what tips the balances here. Is it the very nature of the issues themselves? Is it just that you will get someone coming into the thread and basically lobbing a troll grenade to get people riled?

Me, I just wish there was a little more civility - get angry as hell and tell people that, but stick to the issues. If that were the case, I think you would find a lot more people posting in here, IMHO.

Seriously, I can tell a lot(clearly not all) of the people on T-Nation here are bright enough to make their arguments without relying on baseless insults.

Kuz

  • Return (and post) with honor.