Why the Hatred of the Lat Pulldown

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
41

I’ll tell you why “I” hate the PullDown, the Hammer Strength Low/High Row machines, etc…

1st let me say, I see strength as the primary goal in MY lifting. Looks are a biproduct of strength training and proper diet. HOWEVER, I used to think that the big guy was ALWAYS the strong guy, and I used to think that machines and free weights were the same thing.

With that in mind, here why I hate the Lat Pulldown:
1-) I spent 2 year using the pulldown, hammer strength, cable rows, etc to build back strength and size (granted back then I was just another dumb gym rat). And the way I measured progress was: (1) I got bigger, (2) I could do more pullups.
Well at the begging, back in Senior year of H.S, I could do about 7 pullups at 150lbs. (shitty I know) Then two years later, I was 175lbs, and do could do: 4 PULLUPS!

Yes I was “bigger looking” but I was not “stronger”. Or better said, “I was not as strong as I looked”. And that shit pissed me off big time.

2-) My brother weights 180-185lbs, like me, he benches as much as me (which is not a lot just look at my profile for the #s), he curls more than me, he looks “Bigger” than me. On the Hammer Strenght High Row machine he puts on each side 2 45# plates + 1 25# plate. He thinks he is strong, but I had him do some pullups… HE CANNOT DO 2 PULLUPS!

Conclusion for ME, the Lat Pulldowns ain’t worth shit. Pullups/chinups and variations + weight, and barbell rows are the way to go.

42

[quote]NeoSpartan wrote:
I’ll tell you why “I” hate the PullDown, the Hammer Strength Low/High Row machines, etc…

2-) My brother weights 180-185lbs, like me, he benches as much as me (which is not a lot just look at my profile for the #s), he curls more than me, he looks “Bigger” than me. On the Hammer Strenght High Row machine he puts on each side 2 45# plates + 1 25# plate. He thinks he is strong, but I had him do some pullups… HE CANNOT DO 2 PULLUPS!
[/quote]

Are pull-ups the only exercise you are better than him? So, maybe if he trained using pull-ups he would do more than you? Might be wrong, but I correlate this to doing push-ups. Practice them a lot, you will get good at doing push-ups. Are you just mad that he looks bigger than you?

43

Lat Pulldowns helped me work up to pull up, I couldn’t do one, and find it quite beneficial. I tell you what tho, lat pulldowns are some hard son’s of btiches on high weight.

44

[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
There were some actual biomechanical reasons why pullups were superior.

Something about fore-arms needing to be perpendicular to the floor. [/quote]

Actually that’s not true. I read that as well, but that isn’t how it works. Watch your forearms when you do a pullup. When your arms are supinated or your grip within a a few fist widths of should width or closer the tendency is for the elbow to move forward of the bar. That is how it is for me and everyone I have observed, anyway, you might be different.

I think the reason you are searching for is that pullups are closed kinetic chain and pulldowns are open kinetic chain. That is the only biomechanical difference I know of. But, whether that makes pullups so vastly superior to pulldowns or not is another issue.

Really, if closed-chain lifts were that much better than open-chain lifts, people would also be saying that overhead presses and bench presses suck and dips and pushups are the only pressing exercises worth doing.

45

[quote]Fabius Cunctator wrote:
Really, if closed-chain lifts were that much better than open-chain lifts, people would also be saying that overhead presses and bench presses suck and dips and pushups are the only pressing exercises worth doing.[/quote]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that pushups were better than doing bench press, the only problem was there’s no real effective way of loading it beyond your bodyweight. Kinda like doing handstand pushups instead of overhead press is probably good too.

46

Neospartan,

Correct me if I’m wrong but you said you trained your back with cables and machines and then tested on pullups right? So you mean to tell us that you didn’t do a movement for two years and when it turns out(at a higher bodyweight mind you) that you weren’t as good at it as you previously were that machine work sucks for strength?

It’s like someone who wants to get faster sprint times who quits running on the track and concentrate soley on the weight room. He rain a 10.5 100 meter, then comes back a year later, bigger, stronger in the gym, and runs a 10.8. Well because he stopped training specifically for the thing which he was measuring progress as.

Someone better tell all the powerlifters and big bodybuilders out there they need to stop doing all those pulldowns and get on the chin bar…

47

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that pushups were better than doing bench press, the only problem was there’s no real effective way of loading it beyond your bodyweight. Kinda like doing handstand pushups instead of overhead press is probably good too.[/quote]

Yes, you are probably right that they are better, at least in that they are closed-chain, but the impracticality of loading them easily outweighs that advantage. All I am trying to say is that if the closed chain nature of the exercise is so easily outweighed by the loading impracticalities, being open chain can’t automatically render an exercise devoid of any and all value. And that seems to be the general attitude toward pulldowns: they’re open chain; therefore, they’re crap.

Besides, there is no loading problem with dips; and no one goes around preaching the uncontested superiority of dips over presses. If both dips and barbell presses are solid exercises, and I think few would disagree with that, I don’t see why both pullups and pulldowns can’t be good too. Unless of course I am missing something, and if I am, please feel free to enlighten me.

Personally though, having a build as beefy as a toothpick, I prefer pullups. That’s just my preference though. I don’t hate on anyone who prefers otherwise.

48

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Neospartan,

Correct me if I’m wrong but you said you trained your back with cables and machines and then tested on pullups right? So you mean to tell us that you didn’t do a movement for two years and when it turns out(at a higher bodyweight mind you) that you weren’t as good at it as you previously were that machine work sucks for strength?

It’s like someone who wants to get faster sprint times who quits running on the track and concentrate soley on the weight room. He rain a 10.5 100 meter, then comes back a year later, bigger, stronger in the gym, and runs a 10.8. Well because he stopped training specifically for the thing which he was measuring progress as.

Someone better tell all the powerlifters and big bodybuilders out there they need to stop doing all those pulldowns and get on the chin bar…[/quote]

Fiction the author was full of shit.

Scott if you use common sense again I’m going to have to request the moderators ban you. This is ridiculous. I do not come on here to listen to reason, thats exoxostrogenic. I can’t believe this shit man I’m leaving T-Nation forever.

49

[quote]Legcutter wrote:
Ghost22 wrote:
There were some actual biomechanical reasons why pullups were superior.

Something about fore-arms needing to be perpendicular to the floor.

I read that somewhere here, as well, and I’ll admit that it’s more difficult to meet that particular form issue with pull-downs by feel alone (I know I found I was doing it “wrong” at first), but with access to a mirror for the first few run-throughs, it can be accomplished with relative ease. An occasional brush up here or there, as necessary, and you’re gold.

Obviously, with pull-ups, you really don’t have much of a choice in the matter, as far as that is concerned, which is always a plus (lets you concentrate more on the actual exercise).

Now, I’m not saying pull-downs are necessarily superior, but I find it to be more of a “to each, their own” type of situation.[/quote]

I like pull-ups myself – but Pull-downs wouldn’t be bad to do just because some people may be doing them with bad form. They are just a very segmented exercise – like all machines. A lot of people do pull-ups with bad form. I see a lot of fore-head ups and people dropping to only a quarter arm extension before they pull back up again.

As to kipping like someone else mentioned. Kipping pull-ups are for overall power generation. They are not necessarily to work a particular body part/area. They are a meant to work the metabolic energy systems of the whole body – not just arm strength.

So pulldowns, pullups, kipping pullups – all have their place depending on your goals.

50

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Fiction the author was full of shit.

Scott if you use common sense again I’m going to have to request the moderators ban you. This is ridiculous. I do not come on here to listen to reason, thats exoxostrogenic. I can’t believe this shit man I’m leaving T-Nation forever.[/quote]

Lol…what would he be banned for? I don’t think you are your one post account is particularly threatening.

51

That’s his level haha. He has over 1,000 posts, and at least that one in particular was meant to be sarcastic in regards to my post. He also used a big word that I still don’t know what it means ha.

52

[quote]Fiction wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Fiction the author was full of shit.

Scott if you use common sense again I’m going to have to request the moderators ban you. This is ridiculous. I do not come on here to listen to reason, thats exoxostrogenic. I can’t believe this shit man I’m leaving T-Nation forever.

Lol…what would he be banned for? I don’t think you are your one post account is particularly threatening.[/quote]

Someone has a broken sarcasm detector.

In other news… lat pulldowns are the shit, especially since at 285 I can pull off 3 chinups, which isn’t exactly hypertrophy inducing.

53

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Neospartan,

Correct me if I’m wrong but you said you trained your back with cables and machines and then tested on pullups right? So you mean to tell us that you didn’t do a movement for two years and when it turns out(at a higher bodyweight mind you) that you weren’t as good at it as you previously were that machine work sucks for strength?

It’s like someone who wants to get faster sprint times who quits running on the track and concentrate soley on the weight room. He rain a 10.5 100 meter, then comes back a year later, bigger, stronger in the gym, and runs a 10.8. Well because he stopped training specifically for the thing which he was measuring progress as.

Someone better tell all the powerlifters and big bodybuilders out there they need to stop doing all those pulldowns and get on the chin bar…[/quote]

Hum… You do have a point there Scott. Since the pullup is not the same movement, nor the same neural pattern as the pulldown. And yes I RARELY did any pullups during those 2 years. Also, yes, I was at a higher bodyweight, but moving more weight in the machines.

But anywho… here was the issue Scott:
-I was hoping that moving “heavier” loads on the pulldown/cable/row machines would cause me to get better at the pullup. Which did not happen. Therefore “I don’t like the pulldowns”.

My goal was (and still is) to do more pullups in one go, AND add more weight to my pullups too. That is why I have “hate” the lat pulldown.

HOWEVER, this does not apply to BBers, PLers, etc, etc… If the pulldown works for them then let them go for it. I know where you are getting at Scott, but please don’t overstretch my point.

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
NeoSpartan wrote:
I’ll tell you why “I” hate the PullDown, the Hammer Strength Low/High Row machines, etc…

2-) My brother weights 180-185lbs, like me, he benches as much as me (which is not a lot just look at my profile for the #s), he curls more than me, he looks “Bigger” than me. On the Hammer Strenght High Row machine he puts on each side 2 45# plates + 1 25# plate. He thinks he is strong, but I had him do some pullups… HE CANNOT DO 2 PULLUPS!

Are pull-ups the only exercise you are better than him? So, maybe if he trained using pull-ups he would do more than you? Might be wrong, but I correlate this to doing push-ups. Practice them a lot, you will get good at doing push-ups. Are you just mad that he looks bigger than you?[/quote]

LoL no man, I am not mad at my bro. I love that guy. I used that test to get him to use freeweights for more than his chest and arms. Plus to show him that all that machine stuff he was doing for his back is really not making him stronger, it is only making him look bigger.

Besides the pullup I can:
-Back/Front/Overhead Squat way more than him. Which is WHY I want him to squat more, he is starting with Dan John’s Goblet Squats which is good. Later I want him to Front Squat.
-Deadlift about 200-150lbs more than him. Which is another lift I am trying to get him to do.
-Oh and I can Clean & Jerk and Snatch more than him.
-As well as jump higher and run faster.
Eventually I would like to see him get back to Olympic lifting, he use to do it when he was 16 to 18y.o back in the early 90’s.

54

[quote]Phatshady912 wrote:
Someone has a broken sarcasm detector.

In other news… lat pulldowns are the shit, especially since at 285 I can pull off 3 chinups, which isn’t exactly hypertrophy inducing.[/quote]

If it was entirely out of the ordinary, then it would be obvious sarcasm. However, sentiments such as these are common enough at T-Nation.

55

[quote]NeoSpartan wrote:

My goal was (and still is) to do more pullups in one go, AND add more weight to my pullups too. That is why I have “hate” the lat pulldown. [/quote]

Doing pull-ups and lat pulldowns might get you there quicker than just doing pull-ups.

56

The reason why I prefer pullups is that I can do them with weight. In order to achieve the same w/ lat pulldown, I have to get another person to physically help pull me down with the weight. I do belive that you get better development w/ pullups and it is a good way to make sure your gains are from muscle (particularly the back) and not fat.

beef

57

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
exoxostrogenic[/quote]

WHOA!

Is that even a word?

58

pulldowns are okay, i usually do them only to like my forehead, or where my lats stop pulling and its my rear delts/biceps.

alot of people pull so low that the last part is a wide grip tricep pressdown.

but i prefer to use the hammer strength plate loaded pulldown… it just feels better imo.

and i would usually do pullups but my baby hands hurt after a day of olympic lifting

59

[quote]NeoSpartan wrote:
Well at the begging, back in Senior year of H.S, I could do about 7 pullups at 150lbs. (shitty I know) Then two years later, I was 175lbs, and do could do: 4 PULLUPS!

Yes I was “bigger looking” but I was not “stronger”. Or better said, “I was not as strong as I looked”. And that shit pissed me off big time.

[/quote]

Using your bw as resistance being used for this, and i know it depends on how you define strength and being stronger, but:

When you weighed 150 and could do 7 reps (using a 1RM predictor) your 1RM was about 180lbs.
When you weighed 175 and could do 4 reps (using a 1RM predictor) your 1RM was about 190lbs.

So yes, you could do less reps, BUT were using a greater resistance, and your strength had actually increased as shown by the 1RMs.

60

I’m a decade late to this thread, but since I read it all, I might as well answer the original question since no one else actually directly answered it.

The reason given in the original article for disliking people who do lat pulls is that “if you are strong enough to do a pull up, they’re better for you.” So essentially the author of that article is criticizing people for using a worse exercise. What exactly the original author meant by “better” is unclear, but probably what he meant is that pull ups are more overloading than lat pulls which strikes me as very likely to be true. The author seems to think that people who do the worse exercise are demonstrating mental weakness and fear of pullups.

This is what the original author said and it strikes me as BS. Even if you’re strong enough to do a decent number of pull ups, lat pulls can still be a good addition to your training routine for lots of reasons or just a good alternative.

My back can handle approximately 20 sets of 8 reps of lat exercises per week at around 65% intensity. 20 sets of 8 pull ups would probably be a poor choice of routine. Most people can probably benefit from a decently high volume of back work and not all of the vertical pulling needs to come from pull ups. Also, if pull ups are more overloading, then lat pulls probably can be very useful as a less overloading exercise if the overload of pullups is too much. Also they obviously provide a good alternate stimulation if you want to periodically rotate exercises.

I also strongly suspect that the author is imagining things. How can he really know without asking that people are choosing not to do pull ups due to mental weakness rather than some other reason? I strongly suspect that extremely few gym goers are strong enough to do enough pull ups to make them worthwhile. If your goal is to grow, you need to use a decently high volume including a decent number of reps with a relative intensity of approximately 60-75%. If a body weight pull up is 60% of your 1RM then you should be able to do a weighted pull up with 2/3 of your body weight of additional weight. If you are only strong enough to do one set of 7-8 body weight pull ups then that is a relative intensity of around 80% which is too high to make pullups a useful hypertrophy exercise and certainly not a core exercise of a highly effective back routine. Among people who weigh 180+ lbs probably only extremely advanced lifters are actually strong enough to make pull ups highly worthwhile, and probably most people capable of doing enough pullups to make them worthwhile are relatively skinny and have low body weights and are short.

So, the original author whose article created this thread is probably just full of crap and not thinking straight.