Why Stay Natural?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And would you be “better” if you worked really hard busted your ass and set a 600 pound squat PR vs. doing the same thing and hitting 700 with AAS? Would your life be better or more fulfilled in the second case?
[/quote]
Yes. For me at least. I’ll work as hard as I have to, but I don’t personally find anything self fulfilling or noble about how hard I have to work to get somewhere as long as I fuckin get there.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And would you be “better” if you worked really hard busted your ass and set a 600 pound squat PR vs. doing the same thing and hitting 700 with AAS? Would your life be better or more fulfilled in the second case?
[/quote]
Yes. For me at least. I’ll work as hard as I have to, but I don’t personally find anything self fulfilling or noble about how hard I have to work to get somewhere as long as I fuckin get there.[/quote]

If I had muscular dystrophy I might enjoy squatting 135 more than 600 without it. The road matters more to me. The absolute number mean less.

I am 38 and I have been lifting since I was 12; at this point any additional improvement in strength and lean mass comes very slowly and with much effort. If I relied on my body for my employment, such as for construction work or landscaping, I would certainly use AAS to improve recovery.

I lift because it is purifying for my mind and heart and it is good for health and longevity. Adding muscle and strength is a secondary benefit which increases motivation for training. Therefore using drugs which provide only a temporary improvement would be counterproductive.

I think the biggest reason for not using AAS for me is the concern that I would question whether my strength and muscle is “earned” by sweat and effort or whether it is just a product of the drugs.

This is an awesome thread.
I really commend the OP for asking this.

My background:

I’m an old guy, roughly 50 years old. I have been training for over 30 years (33 to be exact) doing either powerlifting or bodybuilding style workouts. I trained natural for the 1st 10 years and began adding in “auxiliaries” (not necessarily anabolics) around the 12th year of training. I was on anabolics and auxiliaries til 2008 using relatively low dosage cycles and different experimentation with the substances in those years. I stopped all anabolics in 2008 but began doing peptides last quarter of 2013.

During my anabolic using years, I used bloodwork liberally to determine the effects different cycles, dosages, products, etc had on my physiology. I learned, for myself, how much was too much, how long natural test recovery took, what oral only cycles did, etc…and interestingly what I found was that much of the “general” knowledge, beliefs, other’s “experiences”, bro-science, even real science did NOT apply to me. Because of this, I became convinced that everyone’s experience will be different and not any one protocol is the right way to go.

For one, there is the belief that one will lose everything they gained from anabolics. Not true. In MY CASE. Remember, everyone is different. I do think this has to do with discovering for myself what cycle, product, etc was good for me specifically without encountering detrimental side effects, and that in general the lower dosage approach is king here. I also credit sound training foundation and supplementation (yes…I am a firm believer proper supplementation in conjunction with proper training and nutrition will help one keep MOST of what is gained…not ALL) and staying that course as a lifestyle and not just a infrequent thing factors into this. So many “users” don’t stay disciplined with nutrition, training, rest, etc after they stop. Bodybuilding to me is a lifestyle…a lifelong endeavor.

Second, anabolics use will definitively result in health issues down the line. Well, I can’t really answer that since I’m still alive, healthy, and not slowing down any since my use. Granted, I stopped only 5-6 years ago, but bloodwork etc indicate I’m doing quite fine still. There is no guarantee though that I won’t suffer unfortunate issues due to my decisions here, but so far so good.

So many others…I very well could go on but everyone will be bored.

Why I started:

After 10+ years of natural training where I made really wonderful gains, I was curious about anabolics as another tool. Mentally, I remember thinking to myself that here I was, eating, training, sleeping properly to make the excellent gains I had made already, and was beginning to supplement with nutritional and herbal supplements alot with the thinking that this was helping me make “more gains”. No…it wasn’t necessarily about health for me at that time…it was about making gains. Because I loved making gains. Not for anyone else but me.

So, I was supplementing with nutritional supplements to…get an edge in gaining.

I started thinking…now why is this any different that looking at anabolics like nothing more than…supplementation?

Right or wrong, that is why I started. My curiousity made me approach my anabolic usage in a scientific way…and mentally I thought of anabolics more as a tool rather than used it as a crutch; i.e. anabolics would never replace sound training or nutrition.

Where I am today:

As the years went on, I began worrying more about health versus gains. So my cycling, compounds, etc studies on myself were geared more towards a balance between gains AND maintaining health. I am very happy to say that with the help of the anabolics tool at my disposal, I was able to achieve MY physique goals. As of today, even while off for such a long time, I am happy with how I look, my strength, and the way I feel. I strongly believe anabolics helped me achieve this, but I no longer need them.

I am now more interested in what I call “grey area” auxiliaries…the bug to use anabolics again has crossed my mind, but I’m not sure what extra I would achieve from using them again. If my natural test levels dipped to hypogonadal levels, yeah, I would consider, but I am nowhere near that possibility. Things like peptides however interest me from a different perspective though…mostly because I had never tried them before, and heck, they might be yet another tool in the shed for me to use. But I won’t know unless I do it myself. Listening to much to others OPINIONS on these things simply don’t answer the question for me because they have proven to be mostly wrong anyways (when it comes to how they affect me, and me alone).

This is why I also like Biotest because I strongly believe out of most companies out there (and I don’t just use exclusively Biotest products by the way…I use and try everything…I always seem to come back to Biotest in the end though) Biotest really is trying to do things right. The Indigo product, the m-PA, the Plazma, the MAG-10, the superfood…each of these products has become another tool in my shed that has made me better physique-wise.

Yeah, this was a long post. But it was great opportunity to stand on a soapbox! : )

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Flipcollar wrote:

Please quote me so I can see where I said someone not using is not trying to be as ‘good’ as they can? You replaced ‘strong’ with ‘good’, which is an entirely different argument. Strong is measurable. I would be stronger with steroids. Therefore, I am not trying to be as strong as possible. Neither are you. I do strive for goodness, greatness, however you want to describe personal ethics, an overall view of self, whatever. Sounds like you are too. These things aren’t quantifiable the way strength is, and I have no business saying one person is living ‘better’ than another. If I came across as saying this, then that’s my mistake. I thought I was saying the opposite.[/quote]

Saying I’m wrong to judge is saying not judging is better. You are being intolerant of intolerance. It’s self-defeating. Everyone makes judgments. Discrimination is part of any decision process.

I think a lot of decisions other people make are the wrong ones. Like, you thinking it was wrong of me to judge the actions of others . I’m not advocating or attempting to force anything on anyone, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving my evaluation. You don’t have to agree with it, but you don’t have the right to only read things that don’t offend you. Much the way I could have taken offense to insinuating I’m not really trying to be strong. I’m trying to get as strong as possible within my boundaries, same as everyone else.

Saying “it’s worth it” is no different judgmentally to saying “it’s not worth it” but I don’t see you calling out the guys saying to do it. [/quote]

Was this a response to the post above it? It doesn’t really look like it.

The only thing you wrote that really seems directed at my last post was this: “I could have taken offense to insinuating I’m not really trying to be strong”. Which is not something I insinuated. I said: “I am not trying to be as strong as possible. Neither are you.” We’re both trying to be strong. We’re striving for our unassisted limits. Neither of us are striving for our absolute potential, because neither of us use anabolics. This is unequivocally, objectively true. Both of us could be stronger if we used. We don’t. So in that sense, we’re both leaving a tool in the toolbox. And we both have come to the conclusion that said tool should be kept in our respective toolboxes. I feel like there’s a lot of common ground here.

As for not calling out anyone else, your original statement was the only one I found objectionable. I shouldn’t have said anything, because I know you’ll argue any little point to death. You’re always right. So I’m done here.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And would you be “better” if you worked really hard busted your ass and set a 600 pound squat PR vs. doing the same thing and hitting 700 with AAS? Would your life be better or more fulfilled in the second case?
[/quote]
Yes. For me at least. I’ll work as hard as I have to, but I don’t personally find anything self fulfilling or noble about how hard I have to work to get somewhere as long as I fuckin get there.[/quote]

If I had muscular dystrophy I might enjoy squatting 135 more than 600 without it. The road matters more to me. The absolute number mean less.[/quote]
Definitely. I feel like your sentiment is probably more common, but I’m not sure. Probably a lot more fulfilling too lol.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
This is an awesome thread.
I really commend the OP for asking this.

My background:

I’m an old guy, roughly 50 years old. I have been training for over 30 years (33 to be exact) doing either powerlifting or bodybuilding style workouts. I trained natural for the 1st 10 years and began adding in “auxiliaries” (not necessarily anabolics) around the 12th year of training. I was on anabolics and auxiliaries til 2008 using relatively low dosage cycles and different experimentation with the substances in those years. I stopped all anabolics in 2008 but began doing peptides last quarter of 2013.

During my anabolic using years, I used bloodwork liberally to determine the effects different cycles, dosages, products, etc had on my physiology. I learned, for myself, how much was too much, how long natural test recovery took, what oral only cycles did, etc…and interestingly what I found was that much of the “general” knowledge, beliefs, other’s “experiences”, bro-science, even real science did NOT apply to me. Because of this, I became convinced that everyone’s experience will be different and not any one protocol is the right way to go.

For one, there is the belief that one will lose everything they gained from anabolics. Not true. In MY CASE. Remember, everyone is different. I do think this has to do with discovering for myself what cycle, product, etc was good for me specifically without encountering detrimental side effects, and that in general the lower dosage approach is king here. I also credit sound training foundation and supplementation (yes…I am a firm believer proper supplementation in conjunction with proper training and nutrition will help one keep MOST of what is gained…not ALL) and staying that course as a lifestyle and not just a infrequent thing factors into this. So many “users” don’t stay disciplined with nutrition, training, rest, etc after they stop. Bodybuilding to me is a lifestyle…a lifelong endeavor.

Second, anabolics use will definitively result in health issues down the line. Well, I can’t really answer that since I’m still alive, healthy, and not slowing down any since my use. Granted, I stopped only 5-6 years ago, but bloodwork etc indicate I’m doing quite fine still. There is no guarantee though that I won’t suffer unfortunate issues due to my decisions here, but so far so good.

So many others…I very well could go on but everyone will be bored.

Why I started:

After 10+ years of natural training where I made really wonderful gains, I was curious about anabolics as another tool. Mentally, I remember thinking to myself that here I was, eating, training, sleeping properly to make the excellent gains I had made already, and was beginning to supplement with nutritional and herbal supplements alot with the thinking that this was helping me make “more gains”. No…it wasn’t necessarily about health for me at that time…it was about making gains. Because I loved making gains. Not for anyone else but me.

So, I was supplementing with nutritional supplements to…get an edge in gaining.

I started thinking…now why is this any different that looking at anabolics like nothing more than…supplementation?

Right or wrong, that is why I started. My curiousity made me approach my anabolic usage in a scientific way…and mentally I thought of anabolics more as a tool rather than used it as a crutch; i.e. anabolics would never replace sound training or nutrition.

Where I am today:

As the years went on, I began worrying more about health versus gains. So my cycling, compounds, etc studies on myself were geared more towards a balance between gains AND maintaining health. I am very happy to say that with the help of the anabolics tool at my disposal, I was able to achieve MY physique goals. As of today, even while off for such a long time, I am happy with how I look, my strength, and the way I feel. I strongly believe anabolics helped me achieve this, but I no longer need them.

I am now more interested in what I call “grey area” auxiliaries…the bug to use anabolics again has crossed my mind, but I’m not sure what extra I would achieve from using them again. If my natural test levels dipped to hypogonadal levels, yeah, I would consider, but I am nowhere near that possibility. Things like peptides however interest me from a different perspective though…mostly because I had never tried them before, and heck, they might be yet another tool in the shed for me to use. But I won’t know unless I do it myself. Listening to much to others OPINIONS on these things simply don’t answer the question for me because they have proven to be mostly wrong anyways (when it comes to how they affect me, and me alone).

This is why I also like Biotest because I strongly believe out of most companies out there (and I don’t just use exclusively Biotest products by the way…I use and try everything…I always seem to come back to Biotest in the end though) Biotest really is trying to do things right. The Indigo product, the m-PA, the Plazma, the MAG-10, the superfood…each of these products has become another tool in my shed that has made me better physique-wise.

Yeah, this was a long post. But it was great opportunity to stand on a soapbox! : )[/quote]

Great post showing both motivations and perspective.

Yup, great comment buffd_samurai!

[quote]csulli wrote:
I’m only 25, not sure if that’s old enough to give you a good opinion or not on this subject.

Anyway I have a few reasons. Whatever strength and size you gain with steroids you will lose without steroids. Given enough time of taking nothing, you will lose literally all of it and go back to whatever your body can naturally carry (or less if your natural levels never rebound all the way…). So if I were to take steroids I would only feel as though I were “borrowing” that strength; like it wasn’t really mine. I don’t want to be dependent on a substance. I like having the kind of strength where if suddenly I had no access to steroids or I was dropped in the wilderness or something that I would know how strong I was. I can count on my strength and what my body can do and not be thinking about how much weaker I’ll become if I suddenly can’t “borrow” that strength anymore.

Also I don’t want to deal with having to undo any sterility issues should the need arise… I’m probably unnecessarily paranoid about this.

That being said… If I were like 50 right now instead of 25, and I was all nice and settled down and done having kids and had a big, healthy amount of savings and all that, you bet your ass I’d be cruising on test till the day I died lol. At that point I don’t think I’d really care anymore.[/quote]

I am already cruising until the day I die. Just saying =P.

And as for losing all the strength/size without the gear, I would say is false from personal experience. Will you lose some? Of course. All of it? No, not by a long shot. That is if you are still training, correct diet, etc.

And if you do a little shopping around, it is not hard to find a doc to write you scripts. Especially for the right price… Obviously can’t get scripts for everything, but for Test, GH, letro, deca, are pretty easily attainable.

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
I’m only 25, not sure if that’s old enough to give you a good opinion or not on this subject.

Anyway I have a few reasons. Whatever strength and size you gain with steroids you will lose without steroids. Given enough time of taking nothing, you will lose literally all of it and go back to whatever your body can naturally carry (or less if your natural levels never rebound all the way…). So if I were to take steroids I would only feel as though I were “borrowing” that strength; like it wasn’t really mine. I don’t want to be dependent on a substance. I like having the kind of strength where if suddenly I had no access to steroids or I was dropped in the wilderness or something that I would know how strong I was. I can count on my strength and what my body can do and not be thinking about how much weaker I’ll become if I suddenly can’t “borrow” that strength anymore.

Also I don’t want to deal with having to undo any sterility issues should the need arise… I’m probably unnecessarily paranoid about this.

That being said… If I were like 50 right now instead of 25, and I was all nice and settled down and done having kids and had a big, healthy amount of savings and all that, you bet your ass I’d be cruising on test till the day I died lol. At that point I don’t think I’d really care anymore.[/quote]

I am already cruising until the day I die. Just saying =P.

And as for losing all the strength/size without the gear, I would say is false from personal experience. Will you lose some? Of course. All of it? No, not by a long shot. That is if you are still training, correct diet, etc.

And if you do a little shopping around, it is not hard to find a doc to write you scripts. Especially for the right price… Obviously can’t get scripts for everything, but for Test, GH, letro, deca, are pretty easily attainable. [/quote]

Do you get bloodwork done regularly? If so how has it been effected?

Plenty of reasons I would say many of which have all been listed, for me I think the biggest ones are:

  • don’t want to get sucked down some rabbit hole where I end up using 5 different drugs to control the side effects of each other drug that came before it. Or getting addicted to the results and using an ever increasing dosage thus creating more and more side effects

  • dont want to be on them super long after getting used to the results and have it mess up my health or ability to father children

  • I came to a better appreciation for just training to be the best I could be instead of attaining some image I had in my head about what I Should look like or how strong I Should be because so-and-so was.

Honestly I sometimes wish I could pull the trigger and fulfill the dreams of a 20 year old version of myself just once, but those aren’t my dreams anymore and I’m happy just to be able to hit the gym every day ad try to get better any way I can.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

If you mean me, fire away.[/quote]

What are some examples of “flipping out?” TBH, I don’t really care… I was just laughing during your last post and thought you might have some funny stories.

On a side note, I was in Pittsburgh, and saw one of those “Don’t do drugs, kids!” posters on the street. I looked closer, and it turns out the entire thing was about saying no to roids. I didn’t think it was common or harmful enough that they needed PSAs for it. Maybe 'cause GNC is HQ’d in the burgh…

[quote]baugust wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]

Anderson, R A, A M Wallace, and F C Wu. â??Comparison between Testosterone Enanthate-Induced Azoospermia and Oligozoospermia in a Male Contraceptive Study. III. Higher 5 Alpha-Reductase Activity in Oligozoospermic Men Administered Supraphysiological Doses of Testosterone.â?? The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 81, no. 3 (March 1996): 902â??8. doi:10.1210/jcem.81.3.8772548.

Gazvani, M R, W Buckett, M J Luckas, I A Aird, L J Hipkin, and D I Lewis-Jones. â??Conservative Management of Azoospermia Following Steroid Abuse.â?? Human Reproduction (Oxford, England) 12, no. 8 (August 1997): 1706â??8.

Menon, Dev Kumar. â??Successful Treatment of Anabolic Steroid-Induced Azoospermia with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and Human Menopausal Gonadotropin.â?? Fertility and Sterility 79 Suppl 3 (June 2003): 1659â??61.

Sch�¼rmeyer, T, U A Knuth, L Belkien, and E Nieschlag. â??Reversible Azoospermia Induced by the Anabolic Steroid 19-Nortestosterone.â?? Lancet 1, no. 8374 (February 25, 1984): 417â??20.

S�¸rensen, M B, and H J Ingerslev. â??[Azoospermia in 2 body-builders after taking anabolic steroids].â?? Ugeskrift for laeger 157, no. 8 (February 20, 1995): 1044â??45.

“Azoospermia is the medical condition of a man not having any measurable level of sperm in his semen. It is associated with very low levels of fertility or even sterility…”[/quote]

Cheese and rice I didn’t mean on cycle and without hcg come on don’t be dense

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Flipcollar wrote:

Please quote me so I can see where I said someone not using is not trying to be as ‘good’ as they can? You replaced ‘strong’ with ‘good’, which is an entirely different argument. Strong is measurable. I would be stronger with steroids. Therefore, I am not trying to be as strong as possible. Neither are you. I do strive for goodness, greatness, however you want to describe personal ethics, an overall view of self, whatever. Sounds like you are too. These things aren’t quantifiable the way strength is, and I have no business saying one person is living ‘better’ than another. If I came across as saying this, then that’s my mistake. I thought I was saying the opposite.[/quote]

Saying I’m wrong to judge is saying not judging is better. You are being intolerant of intolerance. It’s self-defeating. Everyone makes judgments. Discrimination is part of any decision process.

I think a lot of decisions other people make are the wrong ones. Like, you thinking it was wrong of me to judge the actions of others . I’m not advocating or attempting to force anything on anyone, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving my evaluation. You don’t have to agree with it, but you don’t have the right to only read things that don’t offend you. Much the way I could have taken offense to insinuating I’m not really trying to be strong. I’m trying to get as strong as possible within my boundaries, same as everyone else.

Saying “it’s worth it” is no different judgmentally to saying “it’s not worth it” but I don’t see you calling out the guys saying to do it. [/quote]

Was this a response to the post above it? It doesn’t really look like it.

The only thing you wrote that really seems directed at my last post was this: “I could have taken offense to insinuating I’m not really trying to be strong”. Which is not something I insinuated. I said: “I am not trying to be as strong as possible. Neither are you.” We’re both trying to be strong. We’re striving for our unassisted limits. Neither of us are striving for our absolute potential, because neither of us use anabolics. This is unequivocally, objectively true. Both of us could be stronger if we used. We don’t. So in that sense, we’re both leaving a tool in the toolbox. And we both have come to the conclusion that said tool should be kept in our respective toolboxes. I feel like there’s a lot of common ground here.

As for not calling out anyone else, your original statement was the only one I found objectionable. I shouldn’t have said anything, because I know you’ll argue any little point to death. You’re always right. So I’m done here.[/quote]

I did not address much of the post I quoted, because I already had addressed those points.

To be blunt, I think most people start AAS for the wrong reasons and as a result, it’s a poor life decision. Yes, that probably includes many people on here. I understand that can offend and contradict some other people’s values, but I was talking about mine, not theirs.

And I disagree completely that good and bad are not quantifiable. But regardless, I haven’t been attempting to tell people was good or better is, I’ve been pointing out most people don’t seem to step back and apply their own standards for what decisions like this actually mean in their lives. I’ve been purposely sticking to more general terms for that reason.

If you wanted to know more in depth on my changing beliefs (I was trying to avoid getting too philosophical):
Everyone has some level of disconnect between the tunnel vision, task oriented desire and the actual things that drive joy in their lives. We are creatures that constantly wish and are taught to wish for things that drive us AWAY from fulfillment. We all wish to be the billionaire with the latest million dollar super exotic car, instead of the poor kid making a fort out of the cardboard box, even though the latter is happier.

Admittedly I’m not a guy pushing the boundaries of human performance, but when I’m out squatting in the shed behind my house, there ain’t nobody there but me and my judgment is all that matters. And I don’t have muscular dystrophy and I’m not setting world records or getting paid, but I get satisfaction out of where I am and where I’ve been. And people would be better off if they realized they couldn’t get that from a needle.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]

Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.[/quote]

All gains are not lost. AAS and GH will create structural differences that are for life and add size that won’t leave unless you diet like an idiot off AAS. Seen way to many first hand pct and stay in decent shape except 10lbs bigger than before cycle and they were big to start with.

Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]
I think it goes without saying that the effects of GH are permanent rofl. That’s not usually a good thing though.

Anyway, I don’t know the kind of time frame you’re looking at, but if they did a cycle and then spent, say 2 years off, are you telling me they actually kept anything from that? They may be bigger and stronger from 2 years of training, but I doubt they kept anything. The amount of muscle your body will hold is dependent on your test levels.

And they ALWAYS cause some kind of sterility. Maybe you meant to include the word “permanent” in your statement? I never said I was worried about being permanently sterile, I said I didn’t want to deal with the issues of having to reverse the temporary sterility that is extremely common. For some men it takes up to 2 years to get back to normal.[/quote]

Are you referring to the “pumped up” look people have when on AAS when you talk about losing gains? Because that will definitely disappear as soon as whatever stuff they have been taking clears their systems. Which is why bigger guys may even lose up to 20lbs after a cycle.

From experience, muscular gains are retainable as long as one is not at his genetic peak yet.
[/quote]
I’m talking about actual strength and muscle gains. I won’t get into “genetic peak”, but if someone was like 140lbs when he started taking steroids, first of all he’s an idiot, and second of all, yes he will probably keep a lot of those gains, because he wasn’t anywhere close to what he could have achieved naturally.

The OP asked about people who have been training for years though. If you’re 5’9", relatively lean, and somewhere around 200lbs, you’re not going to get that much bigger naturally. You just aren’t. And whatever else you get unnaturally will go away once you stop.

Ryan Kennelly is 6’2" and was 330+ at his peak. After only a year completely off he had shrunk down to like 220… Is that an extreme example? Yes obviously. Ryan was taking shit loads of gear. But that is the sort of thing that happens regardless. Your body cannot magically sustain the same level of muscle and strength indefinitely at a lower hormone level. That’s just not how mammalian biology works.[/quote]

Person anecdotes. One friend was 5’8 already damn strong. Elite totals and abs lines kinda. Only went up to 210. Pct and dropped to 192 then slowly up to 200 leaner and larger than before all while on pct lost some strength but after pct came back to almost peak on cycle.

Friend two 5’10 210 abs a bit leaner not PLer but still strong but not elite pl level. Up to 224 top of the cycle and pct dropped to 212 then recomped after pct to a leaner and larger 210-212.

Not beginners in any way. Not small. And yet bigger and leaner after shitty pct

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
I’m only 25, not sure if that’s old enough to give you a good opinion or not on this subject.

Anyway I have a few reasons. Whatever strength and size you gain with steroids you will lose without steroids. Given enough time of taking nothing, you will lose literally all of it and go back to whatever your body can naturally carry (or less if your natural levels never rebound all the way…). So if I were to take steroids I would only feel as though I were “borrowing” that strength; like it wasn’t really mine. I don’t want to be dependent on a substance. I like having the kind of strength where if suddenly I had no access to steroids or I was dropped in the wilderness or something that I would know how strong I was. I can count on my strength and what my body can do and not be thinking about how much weaker I’ll become if I suddenly can’t “borrow” that strength anymore.

Also I don’t want to deal with having to undo any sterility issues should the need arise… I’m probably unnecessarily paranoid about this.

That being said… If I were like 50 right now instead of 25, and I was all nice and settled down and done having kids and had a big, healthy amount of savings and all that, you bet your ass I’d be cruising on test till the day I died lol. At that point I don’t think I’d really care anymore.[/quote]

I am already cruising until the day I die. Just saying =P.

And as for losing all the strength/size without the gear, I would say is false from personal experience. Will you lose some? Of course. All of it? No, not by a long shot. That is if you are still training, correct diet, etc.

And if you do a little shopping around, it is not hard to find a doc to write you scripts. Especially for the right price… Obviously can’t get scripts for everything, but for Test, GH, letro, deca, are pretty easily attainable. [/quote]

Do you get bloodwork done regularly? If so how has it been effected?[/quote]

Every 3 months I get a full blood panel and every year a full cardiac workup.

My liver enzymes have been slightly elevated when blasting hard
and that was all. Blood pressure has always been in normal range and kidney function flawless. My cardiac workup also has always come back as healthy. I monitor my blood pressure myself as well on a weekly basis. Like anything you just can’t be ignorant and stupid. All drugs can be dangerous.

Im 38 and have been on TRT for three years, not going to have any more kids and for all intents and purposes am settled down.

I am very tempted to go on AAS, the main things holding me back are…

-Mental and emotional state while on. I am very wary of how I am mentally / emotionally and am unsure if this may bring out the worst in me.

  • I have an addictive personality, I would say there is a vg chance a basic test cycle may eventually not be good enough and will become a walking chemistry set.
  • What if life circumstances change and I am unable to support my AAS usage.
  • I did want to achieve certain strength goals naturally (I know Im on TRT, but thats for another argument/thread) and now with having nerve damage they may never be realized.

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Im 38 and have been on TRT for three years, not going to have any more kids and for all intents and purposes am settled down.

I am very tempted to go on AAS, the main things holding me back are…

-Mental and emotional state while on. I am very wary of how I am mentally / emotionally and am unsure if this may bring out the worst in me.

  • I have an addictive personality, I would say there is a vg chance a basic test cycle may eventually not be good enough and will become a walking chemistry set.
  • What if life circumstances change and I am unable to support my AAS usage.
  • I did want to achieve certain strength goals naturally (I know Im on TRT, but thats for another argument/thread) and now with having nerve damage they may never be realized.
    [/quote]
    Dude what are you waiting for? You already have a TRT script, just get some more test from somewhere and up your cruising dose to something more badass. If circumstances ever dictate you can no longer support your AAS usage, no big deal, just go back to the TRT dose. You don’t have to mess around with anything fancy. It’d just be like bigger TRT.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Im 38 and have been on TRT for three years, not going to have any more kids and for all intents and purposes am settled down.

I am very tempted to go on AAS, the main things holding me back are…

-Mental and emotional state while on. I am very wary of how I am mentally / emotionally and am unsure if this may bring out the worst in me.

  • I have an addictive personality, I would say there is a vg chance a basic test cycle may eventually not be good enough and will become a walking chemistry set.
  • What if life circumstances change and I am unable to support my AAS usage.
  • I did want to achieve certain strength goals naturally (I know Im on TRT, but thats for another argument/thread) and now with having nerve damage they may never be realized.
    [/quote]
    Dude what are you waiting for? You already have a TRT script, just get some more test from somewhere and up your cruising dose to something more badass. If circumstances ever dictate you can no longer support your AAS usage, no big deal, just go back to the TRT dose. You don’t have to mess around with anything fancy. It’d just be like bigger TRT.[/quote]

This is exactly what I say to myself every day lol…

[quote]MattyXL wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Im 38 and have been on TRT for three years, not going to have any more kids and for all intents and purposes am settled down.

I am very tempted to go on AAS, the main things holding me back are…

-Mental and emotional state while on. I am very wary of how I am mentally / emotionally and am unsure if this may bring out the worst in me.

  • I have an addictive personality, I would say there is a vg chance a basic test cycle may eventually not be good enough and will become a walking chemistry set.
  • What if life circumstances change and I am unable to support my AAS usage.
  • I did want to achieve certain strength goals naturally (I know Im on TRT, but thats for another argument/thread) and now with having nerve damage they may never be realized.
    [/quote]
    Dude what are you waiting for? You already have a TRT script, just get some more test from somewhere and up your cruising dose to something more badass. If circumstances ever dictate you can no longer support your AAS usage, no big deal, just go back to the TRT dose. You don’t have to mess around with anything fancy. It’d just be like bigger TRT.[/quote]

This is exactly what I say to myself every day lol…
[/quote]

If you don’t have a mild temperament pre-AAS, I’d be hesistant. WF talks about how he’s naturally a little hot headed so AAS just made it worse for him.I still remember that body check on the street thread you made lol.

On the other side of the coin, each substance has different effects and you can test stuff to see what works best for you. Furthermore, you’re on TRT so you’re not going to do PCT which eliminates a major source of mood swings.

My .02