I ran across a rarely publicized excerpt from a Ben-Laden’s speech and thought it was worth sharing.
“Security is an important element of human life, and free people do not give up their security. Unlike what Bush says “that we hate freedom” let him tell us why didn’t we attack Sweden, for example.” - Osama bin-Laden, 2003
So, why didn’t they attack Sweden or Switzerland? Can it have anything to do with the annual 3 billion Dollars your government hands out to Israel? One wonders…
[quote]lixy wrote:
I ran across a rarely publicized excerpt from a Ben-Laden’s speech and thought it was worth sharing.
“Security is an important element of human life, and free people do not give up their security. Unlike what Bush says �?? that we hate freedom �?? let him tell us why didn’t we attack Sweden, for example.” - Osama bin-Laden, 2003
So, why didn’t they attack Sweden or Switzerland? Can it have anything to do with the annual 3 billion Dollars your government hands out to Israel? One wonders…[/quote]
Translation: “We don’t like your friends, so we are going to send terrorists to blow up your women and children. We will send IEDs and new, more lethal roadside bombs to our brothers in Iraq, because you filthy Americans have the gall to remove an evil dictator and establish a democracy. We’re mad at you for removing Saddam, who was our Muslim brother who attacked us and …uh,oh…”
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Translation: “We don’t like your friends, so we are going to send terrorists to blow up your women and children. We will send IEDs and new, more lethal roadside bombs to our brothers in Iraq, because you filthy Americans have the gall to remove an evil dictator and establish a democracy. We’re mad at you for removing Saddam, who was our Muslim brother who attacked us and …uh,oh…”
[/quote]
[quote]vroom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Translation: “We don’t like your friends, so we are going to send terrorists to blow up your women and children. We will send IEDs and new, more lethal roadside bombs to our brothers in Iraq, because you filthy Americans have the gall to remove an evil dictator and establish a democracy. We’re mad at you for removing Saddam, who was our Muslim brother who attacked us and …uh,oh…”
Must you always be a nitwit?[/quote]
How many Iranians died in the war Saddam started with Iran in 1980 (or 1981)? They attack us for removing someone who killed how many hundreds of thousands of Iranians? Uh, I think the ‘title’ nitwit belongs elsewhere here, Vroomie.
Lixy, can you check for me to see how much $$ the government of Indonesia gives to Israel? It must be enough for the muslim extremists to blow up a disco there.
Oh, and the trains in Madrid. Check on Spain as well they must be sending boat loads of cash to the Israelis as well.
Do keep me posted as you catalog all of Osama’s speaches that inspire you so much.
We must also look into the contributions to Israel of the poor African Christians and animists being slaughtered by Islamists and, of course, the Buddhists. No doubt its their “fault” they have been dominated and liquidated by the “victim” Islamists.
Isn’t it interesting that OBL can dupe ideologues thousands of miles away? He continues to be an excellent propaganda puupet-master to his lapdogs on the Left.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
How many Iranians died in the war Saddam started with Iran in 1980 (or 1981)? They attack us for removing someone who killed how many hundreds of thousands of Iranians? Uh, I think the ‘title’ nitwit belongs elsewhere here, Vroomie.
[/quote]
Oh, you want to change your comments to something else instead of the puerile rant earlier?
Hmm, let’s see, looks like another ridiculous point which has nothing to do with the motivations being discussed. A high school student would have a better understanding of world issues than you appear to demonstrate.
Bin Laden hates us for our presence in the Middle East, our forced markets there, Saudi Arabia etc. Israeli support is just the cherry on top for him.
People who bought the ‘hate us for our freedom’ bit are the same people who thought America was the ‘free-est’ nation. Because when world news are a 5min segment at the end of the evening broadcast how would they know that it isn’t?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
We must also look into the contributions to Israel of the poor African Christians and animists being slaughtered by Islamists and, of course, the Buddhists. No doubt its their “fault” they have been dominated and liquidated by the “victim” Islamists.
Isn’t it interesting that OBL can dupe ideologues thousands of miles away? He continues to be an excellent propaganda puupet-master to his lapdogs on the Left.[/quote]
Unconditional support for the state of Israel and military interventionism, while not at the root of the Islamist movement, are certainly the main issues the Arabs have with your government. Because of the weaknesses of nationalist movements (which the West couldn’t tolerate back in the days and ardently fought), the Islamists filled the void.
Now, what’s the murders of African Christians, Buddhists and other Shi’ites have to do with Ben-Laden? Just because some whackjob raises a sword in the name of Allah, doesn’t mean he’s been commanded by Ossama. I’ll reiterate my question if it wasn’t clear enough: Why did they chose to target the US and not Sweden on 9/11? Subsequent attacks matter not because they were very likely a response to the Iraq war.
T-bolt, appending sentences with “dupe”, “ideologues”, “propaganda”, “puppet-master” or “lapdogs” to your posts are not arguments. They have no added value. You’re a smart guy, please cut the BS.
Unconditional support for the state of Israel and military interventionism, while not at the root of the Islamist movement, are certainly the main issues the Arabs have with your government. Because of the weaknesses of nationalist movements (which the West couldn’t tolerate back in the days and ardently fought), the Islamists filled the void.[/quote]
The problem is, of course, you and the rest of the Arab world take support for Israel to be an automatic, unassailable “evil”. The West does not - so there is little reason to say OBL or the Arab nation generally is “justified” in acting out the way they do.
Support of Israel makes a lot of Arabs mad, to be sure - a better question is: so what? Is it a legitimate grievance? If it’s not, then all this talk about “that is the cause!” is irrelevant. All murderous movements have a “grievance” behind them - the Nazis did, the Communists did, local terror outfits (think white supremacists) - they all back their mayhem with a “complaint” and a “grievance”.
The answer is: so what? We don’t have to reflexively believe the “grievance” is right, just, or even made in good faith. Legions of Arab Muslims - filled with naked bigotry, racism, and hate - support the eradication of Israel. The time has come to no longer validate those bad faith “grievances” by giving them the benefit of the doubt - the problem, as it were, is becoming the Arabs’, not the West’s, as the Muslim world continues to downward spiral into tribalism, hate, and ignorance, all the result of self-inflicted problems - and the world begins to finally turn its back on these cesspools of barbarism by making the countries their irrelevant.
Because, despite your apologism, there is one dangerous common denominator between all these groups - Islamic barbarism and a desire to conquer their enemies.
And why did the Islamists not target Sweden? Easy answer - they don’t fear Sweden. Plus, if Sweden decides not to back Israel, no problem, that is Sweden’s prerogative - but again you fall into the same foolishness: we don’t automatically presume that the Islamists gripe about our support to Israel is fair and in good faith. Therefore, we might support Israel in spite of their complaints, because we think supporting Israel is the better thing to do.
What you keep suggesting, Lixy, is giving in to blackmail. If someone demands something of you and threatens to hurt you if you refuse to do it, it’s called blackmail. The Islamists have been trying to blackmail the West since the late 1970s. Sadly, for you, you think the demands are made in good faith, but you should know better.
Call them bonuses. And it is important to call a spade a spade at this point. Part of the problem is exactly what I stated - loathesome Islamist barbarians manipulate airhead radicals like you into doing their bidding - you constantly apologize for them by giving them philosophical cover: “well, if you didn’t support Israel, they wouldn’t hurt you!”. You are complicit in their blackmail because you continue to give them a break by saying over and over and over “it’s not their fault!”.
If that hurts your precious, trust-fund radical sensibilities, I couldn’t care less. Your mushy-headed thinking is not just wrong, it is dangerous - and it should be pointedly outed in no uncertain terms.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
The problem is, of course, you and the rest of the Arab world take support for Israel to be an automatic, unassailable “evil”. The West does not - so there is little reason to say OBL or the Arab nation generally is “justified” in acting out the way they do.[/quote]
Once again, you’re portraying my attempt to pinpoint the major causes of the movement to “justification”. I have never justified violent actions against civilians and I never will.
Support for Israel is OK by me. Unconditional support for Israel is what’s bothering me. Being the only country on God’s green Earth to oppose every UN proposition critical of the Zionist state surely shows great bias on your part. Is it any wonder the Arab hold you responsible when Lebanese kids are blown up. You gave Israel the cluster bombs after all…
I don’t see why you’d use the word apologism. Did I in any way say that their actions were alright? I’m just trying to see why Al-Qaeda (not other Islamist groups) has a beef with the US and why they chose to attack you instead of the hundred other countries on Earth on 9/11.
What’s fear gotta do with anything? It didn’t make the least bit of sense. Please elaborate.
Better thing to do? Are you sure you have a choice (with AIPAC and all)?
“I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.” – President Harry Truman,
Did I now? Please show us where I made such a suggestion.
I call them cheap non-constructive rants. A bonus has an added value. Your rants are mostly ad-hominems.
[quote]Part of the problem is exactly what I stated - loathesome Islamist barbarians manipulate airhead radicals like you into doing their bidding - you constantly apologize for them by giving them philosophical cover: “well, if you didn’t support Israel, they wouldn’t hurt you!”. You are complicit in their blackmail because you continue to give them a break by saying over and over and over “it’s not their fault!”.
If that hurts your precious, trust-fund radical sensibilities, I couldn’t care less. Your mushy-headed thinking is not just wrong, it is dangerous - and it should be pointedly outed in no uncertain terms.[/quote]
Once again, you’re portraying my attempt to pinpoint the major causes of the movement to “justification”. I have never justified violent actions against civilians and I never will.[/quote]
But there is no reason to “pinpoint” the cause - everyone knows what it is. It is common knowledge - everyone who pays attention knows Israel’s presence is the grievance.
Why must you continue to act like you are shedding some valuable light in an area we are all unsure of? Islamists hate Israel and by proxy anyone who helps the hated Israel. Right. Got it. This is news? This needed pinpointing, when the Islamists outrightly tell the world over and over and over?
No, you don’t want to “pinpoint” anything - we all know that is a driver of Islamic barbarism, you aren’t informing anyone of anything new. And I presume you know that - instead, in your predictable victim-cultist method, you want to imply that the West deserves a little bit of backlash for supporting Israel.
How do I know this? You hate Israel and think it is a rogue, imperialist, criminal state. Don’t suddenly plead innocence and act like you were “only pinpointing an unknown cause” when you are sympathetic to the “victims” of the despised Israel.
Do you not realize how transparent you really are?
See what I mean? Your biases always seep in, even when you are trying to pretend you aren’t “justifying” terrorism.
Look at your above paragraph - if that’s not a suggestion of “justification” ("Is it any wonder the Arab hold you responsible…?), then my ass is a banjo.
Everyone can see through you, Lixy. Why not just fess up?
We all know why they have a beef - they have said so over and over and over in various fatwas and interviews. Everyone seems to know this but you - why are you trying to “see why they do what they do” when no one is in the dark about it?
They don’t worry about Sweden getting involved if they continue to establish the dominance in various parts of the world. Islamists know the US gets a little ornery at totalitarianism - not so much Sweden.
Go sell conspiracy somewhere else, child. And you wonder why you get labeled in a harsh way, what with hiding behind juvenile nonsense like this?
You think the “grievances” are justified. You think the West should do what Islamists want them to do, because the West is in the wrong.
They do have an added value - they show my utter disdain for uninformed dorm-room radicals who indulge in ideas that are actually making the world a more dangerous place for liberalism. And I wouldn’t want you to misunderstand where I am coming from - so consider them a colorful reminder of what I think of so-called “liberals” who are in reality the handmaidens of totalitarianism.
We live in a dangerous world frought with risks. It is high time we - meaning those in the mainstream - liberal, conservative, centrist - stop entertaining nonsense as a nation/world and get down to serious thinking about solutions. You and radicals like you have proven they are outside that rational conversation, and it is too late in the day to tolerate radical silliness when there is real political work to be done.
We live in a dangerous world frought with risks. It is high time we - meaning those in the mainstream - liberal, conservative, centrist - stop entertaining nonsense as a nation/world and get down to serious thinking about solutions. You and radicals like you have proven they are outside that rational conversation, and it is too late in the day to tolerate radical silliness when there is real political work to be done.[/quote]
Thunder,
You’ve outdone yourself. That last paragraph is pure gold.
We all know that lixy is trying to justify and excuse 11th century behavior. Even the most ridiculous posters on here are distancing themselves from his agenda.
I would say to lixy that until he and his associates take a hard look at the root causes and work on solutions, there will be continual warfare on an ever growing scale.
Further, his M.O. is to blame external factors for what is essentially internal failings.
lixy, why is sweden’s crime rate so low? Why is sweden’s poverty rates low? Why is literacy so high?
Stop being bin laden’s mouthpiece long enough to see that the reverse question is even more powerful?
Question: “bin laden, why was lowly sweden in so much better shape than Afghanistan circa 2000?”
[quote]vroom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
How many Iranians died in the war Saddam started with Iran in 1980 (or 1981)? They attack us for removing someone who killed how many hundreds of thousands of Iranians? Uh, I think the ‘title’ nitwit belongs elsewhere here, Vroomie.
Oh, you want to change your comments to something else instead of the puerile rant earlier?
Hmm, let’s see, looks like another ridiculous point which has nothing to do with the motivations being discussed. A high school student would have a better understanding of world issues than you appear to demonstrate.
Yep. You are still a nitwit.[/quote]
Looks like somebody put your lightbulb in a paper bag and smashed it with a hammer there, Vroomie.
How about addressing what I said instead of this irrationality you keep spouting? Oh wait, the bulb got smashed…
[quote]lixy wrote:
So, why didn’t they attack Sweden or Switzerland? Can it have anything to do with the annual 3 billion Dollars your government hands out to Israel? One wonders…[/quote]
You’re a tool,lixy…what kind of simple minded question is that? You do realize what the WORLD TRADE CENTER represented,right? What would Bin Laden really gain by attacking Sweden?..hmmm:
So,why didn’t the Nazis attack Sweden or Switzerland? Can it have anything to do with the supplies and pathways your government handed out to Hitler? lol
Why is it that everything you post has the same undertone of “see what the US has done wrong?” I’m tired of the recent trend of outsiders bashing us…but at the same time want to harbor what we stand for and our culture. But I guess its like having a role-model figure and being dissapointed when you find out your role-model is NOT PERFECT…then ridicule them because of their faults…when you should be reflecting of why you admired them in the first place.
The answer is: so what? We don’t have to reflexively believe the “grievance” is right, just, or even made in good faith. Legions of Arab Muslims - filled with naked bigotry, racism, and hate - support the eradication of Israel. The time has come to no longer validate those bad faith “grievances” by giving them the benefit of the doubt - the problem, as it were, is becoming the Arabs’, not the West’s, as the Muslim world continues to downward spiral into tribalism, hate, and ignorance, all the result of self-inflicted problems - and the world begins to finally turn its back on these cesspools of barbarism by making the countries their irrelevant.
[/quote]
Isn’t it amazing how the Arabs get one of the biggest wealth transfers in history and yet their culture is as backward as ever? You’d think the region would be a paradise.
Same with Mexico. Tons of cash but they blew it all and the people have to come here to find work. Another loser culture…
If that hurts your precious, trust-fund radical sensibilities, I couldn’t care less. Your mushy-headed thinking is not just wrong, it is dangerous - and it should be pointedly outed in no uncertain terms.[/quote]
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
But there is no reason to “pinpoint” the cause - everyone knows what it is. It is common knowledge - everyone who pays attention knows Israel’s presence is the grievance. [/quote]
A great many deal of people still entertain the idea that they “are jealous” or “they hate freedom”. Matter of fact, it’s Bush’s official position.
The debate will be closed once your government acknowledges it. The average Joe in the US don’t have your analytical capabilities and may buy Bush’s line.
Stop presuming. Pointing out that asthma in kids is rising because of pollution doesn’t imply that they got what they deserved for having ecologically inactive parents.
I don’t hate Israel. Israel is not some monolithic entity.
As for being sympathetic to the victims of Zionism, yes; I believe Palestinian children have the right to live in dignity and not be packed like sardines in open-air prisons.
[quote]See what I mean? Your biases always seep in, even when you are trying to pretend you aren’t “justifying” terrorism.
Look at your above paragraph - if that’s not a suggestion of “justification” ("Is it any wonder the Arab hold you responsible…?), then my ass is a banjo. [/quote]
How often do you pick solos on it?
Be serious for a second. If some country X gave Mexico weapons that were in turn used to attack your civilian population, wouldn’t you hold X responsible for those deaths? Can merely saying that be interpreted as a suggestion of “justification”? Grow up!
Your president seems to be in denial.
That explains why the US doesn’t support regimes such as Musharraf’s, Al-Sauds, Mubaraks, Alaouis. Oh wait…
I asked a simple question. AIPAC’s weight is not to be demonstrated.
Where did you see a conspiracy in this?
Again, where did I say that? Are you sure you read my posts?
[quote]They do have an added value - they show my utter disdain for uninformed dorm-room radicals who indulge in ideas that are actually making the world a more dangerous place for liberalism. And I wouldn’t want you to misunderstand where I am coming from - so consider them a colorful reminder of what I think of so-called “liberals” who are in reality the handmaidens of totalitarianism.
We live in a dangerous world frought with risks. It is high time we - meaning those in the mainstream - liberal, conservative, centrist - stop entertaining nonsense as a nation/world and get down to serious thinking about solutions. You and radicals like you have proven they are outside that rational conversation, and it is too late in the day to tolerate radical silliness when there is real political work to be done.[/quote]
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
You’re a tool,lixy…what kind of simple minded question is that? You do realize what the WORLD TRADE CENTER represented,right? What would Bin Laden really gain by attacking Sweden?..hmmm: [/quote]
And what did Ben Laden “really gain by attacking” the US?
This is just mean. Why can’t you Americans discuss anything without bringing Nazis to the table?
You’re right…at least partially.
I admire the US very much, and it saddens me to see the principles it was built on go down the drain. But it’s not about not being perfect in the same sense as discovering your hero has an underbelly or smokes like a chimney. It’s about the mightiest country on Earth attacking (or funding attacks on) others for no good reason. That’s the behavior I condemn. I hope that’s clear.
What did Bin Laden “really gain by attacking” the US? Lixy,think about it…you answered your own question…you’re “smart.” As for the “fact” about the Nazis…it was needed to buffer your misguided posts about our country “attacking others for no good reason.”
Do you live in the US?..do you see all our principles going down the drain? What principles does your country stand for? I’ll agree that the principles established are being manipulated by our government but thats another story.
And since our behavior is what you condemn…by default are you supporting Bin Laden’s? …hmm…interesting…so did Sweden knowingly support Hitler and turn its back to Jews…or was it doing its best to stay “neutral?” We’re not going just sit back and let people attack us or turn our back to those that terrorize innocent people.
