Can anybody give me a straight answer why we don’t supplement nolva,clomid,or something else to keep FSH in our system other than you just don’t take nolva or clomid with hcg. That was part of the very first protocol I did and when it was taken I just feel like I’m missing something.
If you are taking exogenous T then no amount of nolva or clomid will maintain LH or FSH output
SERMs will create high LH/FSH levels when on TRT. SERMs have side effects that make them unsuitable for long term use. Clomid can kill libido for some.
If you are looking to have child HMG would be best option other then hcg.
FSH is never even checked after starting TRT unless fertility is an issue.
Yes fertility is an issue with me thats why I’m wondering why we don’t use something like HMG with our TRT until it is no longer a issue. I don’t have children yet so it’s a major concern that I want to address. Thanks.
[quote]KSman wrote:
SERMs will create high LH/FSH levels when on TRT. SERMs have side effects that make them unsuitable for long term use. Clomid can kill libido for some.[/quote]
along with suppressing estrogen feedback, Clomid has some estrogen like effects, and doctors are concerned about long term exposure and possible cancer risks. It is a big unknown and doctors are nervous about putting their patients in harms way.
Just thought id throw my 2 cents in here… I know its not “proper” protocal but ive been on trt for about year and half and was originally prescribed hcg with clomid. never took the clomid because of all the stuff i hear about it. I have to say that about 6 months ago i decided to try it for a bit just to see, since i wasnt feeling all that great. I can say i felt much better taking 25 mg every 3-4 days with my trt than without. Far more normal. I dont think enough research has been done on the effect of shutting down lh/fsh from the pituitary. I feel that it has a certain affect. Again, only an experience of one, so take it for what its worth, but I truly feel theres something to it. Hopefully someday trt will include a way to keep lh/fsh firing from the brain without relying upon clomid, which i stopped based on no long term safety gaurantees.
[quote]KSman wrote:
SERMs will create high LH/FSH levels when on TRT. SERMs have side effects that make them unsuitable for long term use. Clomid can kill libido for some.[/quote]
Is this correct? When using exogenous testosterone you can maintain LH and FSH output with SERMS?
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
If you are looking to have child HMG would be best option other then hcg.
FSH is never even checked after starting TRT unless fertility is an issue. [/quote]
My doc checks once in awhile.
[quote]Cymru wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
SERMs will create high LH/FSH levels when on TRT. SERMs have side effects that make them unsuitable for long term use. Clomid can kill libido for some.[/quote]
Is this correct? When using exogenous testosterone you can maintain LH and FSH output with SERMS?[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
Just thought id throw my 2 cents in here… I know its not “proper” protocal but ive been on trt for about year and half and was originally prescribed hcg with clomid. never took the clomid because of all the stuff i hear about it. I have to say that about 6 months ago i decided to try it for a bit just to see, since i wasnt feeling all that great. I can say i felt much better taking 25 mg every 3-4 days with my trt than without. Far more normal. I dont think enough research has been done on the effect of shutting down lh/fsh from the pituitary. I feel that it has a certain affect. Again, only an experience of one, so take it for what its worth, but I truly feel theres something to it. Hopefully someday trt will include a way to keep lh/fsh firing from the brain without relying upon clomid, which i stopped based on no long term safety gaurantees.[/quote]
Why not try clomid and see for yourself. It’s NOT a rule that people feel out of sorts on clomid. As I’ve said on here over and over again, the first time I tried clomid with a measly HALF A TABLET–that’s 25 mg–my T went from 240 to 790 ng/dl (!) and I had ZERO side effects. Libido and mood were fine! I know another guy who took half a tab and went from about 190 to the mid 500’s with HALF A TAB with no side effects. See for yourself first.
Actually, my libido was out of control–As it usually is!–on clomid.
The only downside to ‘just trying’ clomid is that a few will feel terrible. We could call that a rule, the risk applies to everyone and you can try clomid and most likely you will not have a problem, but if you do, what help is “It’s NOT a rule that people feel out of sorts on clomid”.
As these types of estrogenic side effects that affect a few do not seem to occur with nolvadex, nolvadex would seem to be a better option. And doses much smaller than the typical 20mg may get the job done.
[quote]Cymru wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
SERMs will create high LH/FSH levels when on TRT. SERMs have side effects that make them unsuitable for long term use. Clomid can kill libido for some.[/quote]
Is this correct? When using exogenous testosterone you can maintain LH and FSH output with SERMS?[/quote]
SERMs make the HPTA ‘feedback mechanism’ blind to serum E2 levels. The HPTA then runs close to ‘open loop’ and LH levels can be quite high. This occurs with or without TRT.
TRT normally does shut down LH/FSH production, which seems to be source of your confusion. But with a small understanding of HPTA function, it all makes sense.
[quote]KSman wrote:
[quote]Cymru wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
SERMs will create high LH/FSH levels when on TRT. SERMs have side effects that make them unsuitable for long term use. Clomid can kill libido for some.[/quote]
Is this correct? When using exogenous testosterone you can maintain LH and FSH output with SERMS?[/quote]
SERMs make the HPTA ‘feedback mechanism’ blind to serum E2 levels. The HPTA then runs close to ‘open loop’ and LH levels can be quite high. This occurs with or without TRT.
TRT normally does shut down LH/FSH production, which seems to be source of your confusion. But with a small understanding of HPTA function, it all makes sense.[/quote]
I realise all of this and more - but what about the direct effect of androgens? If your theory were true then non aromatising steroids would not shut down you HPTA (and I could quite happily take winstrol with no fear of shutdown which would be great!!)?
Also why when on a cycle would bodybuilders choose not to use a SERM and prevent or at least have a head-start in minimising the likely-hood of post cycle shutdown?
Some BB guys do that. Again from a side effect point of view, hCG might be a better choice. The BB guys have stories of SERM side effects that shapes ones choice. Many BB guys run on ‘will not happen to me’ and ignore such issues, as well as routine use of an AI.
“non aromatising steroids would not shut down you HPTA” Well they will not do so by jacking up E levels. Some can preferably bind to SHBG creating more FT. The FT has some HPTA inhibiting effects and more FT means more T–>E2 as well. So there are secondary effects and some of these agents also have direct negative feedback effects of their own.
E2 is considered to be way more of a negative feedback than T. Note that some get high T levels with SERMs. Obviously, if T was highly repressive, this could not occur.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Some BB guys do that. Again from a side effect point of view, hCG might be a better choice. The BB guys have stories of SERM side effects that shapes ones choice. Many BB guys run on ‘will not happen to me’ and ignore such issues, as well as routine use of an AI.
“non aromatising steroids would not shut down you HPTA” Well they will not do so by jacking up E levels. Some can preferably bind to SHBG creating more FT. The FT has some HPTA inhibiting effects and more FT means more T–>E2 as well. So there are secondary effects and some of these agents also have direct negative feedback effects of their own.
E2 is considered to be way more of a negative feedback than T. Note that some get high T levels with SERMs. Obviously, if T was highly repressive, this could not occur.
[/quote]
Ok - sorry to be a pain but I find this very interesting. Would the increased free testosterone levels you exhibit (generally) during TRT not shut you down in exactly the same way as the higher free T induced by non-aromatising steroids? Any secondary effects exhibited by a non-aromatising steroid would also be exhibited by high levels of endogenous testosterone and again cause HPTA shutdown?
In essence I could take a TRT dose of testosterone (or slightly more)and control the negative feedback of estrogen with nolva and ensure that my pituitary continues to secrete FSH/LH?
I am 42 years of age and have on a number of occasions dipped into AS usage. Over the years I used nolva to prevent gyno and never had any issues after cycles, having an easy transition back to every day life, good sex drive etc etc no sign of HPTA issues. Last year I decided to try an AI instead and after a very short, low dose cycle of test prop had enormous issues - it has taken me a year of on/off cycles and PCT’s to get back to normal. You are making me wonder wether the use of nolva for all those years was the single factor thjat allowed seamless/side effect free transitions.
Why don’t we just use HMG to mimic our FSH while on TRT. Just like we do HCG for our LH. It makes sense that if you going to mimic one why not go the full distance instead of just half way.
[quote]oscar31280 wrote:
Why don’t we just use HMG to mimic our FSH while on TRT. Just like we do HCG for our LH. It makes sense that if you going to mimic one why not go the full distance instead of just half way. [/quote]
cost, for one. hmg is much more expensive than hcg. not sure why.
my fertilty guy has me starting hmg and its about 250 bucks a week.
Ouch!! Insurance wont cover for hypogonadism.