T Nation

Why No High Rep DL's & O-Lifts?

Just my noobish opinion but,

When people are training for strength they generally base their plan around movements such as cleans and deadlifts. When designing a plan for strength the big moveements are generally trained with lower reps, and the acessory and supplemental movements are going to be trained with high reps because the main movements are the primary strength builders.

The football lifting program i’m on has us doing 2 sets of ten on deadlift and the same on squat weekly. I’ve been upping the weight and do 3 sets of 3 on deadlift, and 3 sets of 5 on squat. I’m assuming this is what most people who don’t like high rep lifts do?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with it, and could actually be quite useful sometimes. My take on not doing “high” reps (as in 12-20 reps) with oly lifts, “technical” lifts, deadlifts, or other lifts that require strict form for a rather complex movement is as follows:

These lifts require good form, and as you start doing more reps fatigue starts to set in and the quality of your form may start to diminish, resulting in a higher chance of injury.

As a strength athlete in college I rarely did power cleans for more than three reps. I can recall doing some sets of 5 reps with lighter weight 225-245 for five reps in order to get a little wind in us.

As an athlete I focused on fast twitch, powerful, amd fast movements. IMO after three reps in the power clean, bar speed slows to a point where it no longer will benefit me as a power athlete. As bar speed slows, it moves from a powerful, explosive lift to a pure strength lift I didn’t need at that point in my athletic career/season.

My opinion

useful “shock tool” for hypertrophy purposes, we always talk about multi joint exercises, well whats more multi joint than a power clean or something similar. T-Nation has released several articles encouraging high reps for the lower body (hungarian oak for instance) its funny that this has been around for a long time just seems like it might be the fad that comes back in style.

The dilemma here is that the old school strong guys seem to have used these high rep methods much LATER in their careers after they already built a base of incredible strength in low rep ranges.

As far as conditioning, I think there are better ways to go about getting some sort of metabolic conditioning going. Complexes for instance. Which can be done heavier IF you’re stronger to begin with.

Which just supports my 2nd point, you’ll get more benefit from utilizing the Heavy but high rep dogma if you’re already very strong.

Which accounts for guys like jesse marunde and other strong men who do high reps with heavy weight. I posted a video on another thread of J.M. doing 3x20 with 1 arm overhead presses… this is probably three fold reasoning…One it works for hypertrophy, two it increased his muscular conditioning, three it was specific to his sport!

For instance myself, I would be better of spending time (and sapping my Nutrients, CNS & muscular resources) doing extra work on the heavy bag than I would spending more time overhead pressing. Thats just more specific to my personal goals.

Which is something I need to work on cause I get on a kick where I want to do fucking everything in the weight room and all I really need to do are Power Cleans, Front Squats and leave.

A lot of people seem to be avoiding this:

Power is best developed at the low rep ranges. I can use workouts like this to get my power from 7-10.

This, however, won’t get me all that much better at producing power over a longer period of time (conditioning to a specific fitness requirement). I can use workouts with higher repetition ranges to effectively lengthen the amount of time that I can consistently display the power that I built by using lower rep ranges.

Many sports that are still anaerobic/power based require repeated bouts of extended effort at a high power output.

How does calculate their 85% max?

[quote]gi2eg wrote:
A lot of people seem to be avoiding this:

Power is best developed at the low rep ranges. I can use workouts like this to get my power from 7-10.

This, however, won’t get me all that much better at producing power over a longer period of time (conditioning to a specific fitness requirement). I can use workouts with higher repetition ranges to effectively lengthen the amount of time that I can consistently display the power that I built by using lower rep ranges.

Many sports that are still anaerobic/power based require repeated bouts of extended effort at a high power output.

[/quote]

Using Higher Rep ranges primarily develops strength-endurance. It is not the most efficient way to develop maximal strength.

[quote]blazindave wrote:
How does calculate their 85% max?
[/quote]

Lift a weight. Lift some more. Try lift some more. When you can’t lift anymore, multiply your last successful lift by 0.85!

[quote]gi2eg wrote:
A lot of people seem to be avoiding this:

Power is best developed at the low rep ranges. I can use workouts like this to get my power from 7-10.

This, however, won’t get me all that much better at producing power over a longer period of time (conditioning to a specific fitness requirement). I can use workouts with higher repetition ranges to effectively lengthen the amount of time that I can consistently display the power that I built by using lower rep ranges.

Many sports that are still anaerobic/power based require repeated bouts of extended effort at a high power output.

[/quote]

And those sports are better served by doing something they’re not going to hurt themselves doing. Front/Zercher squats seem to make more sense than deadlifts or cleans, a step even better could be the bike. Repeat sprints are a good choice if you’re not like a lineman or sumo wrestler in weight. Hell even play your sport if it makes sense. Just don’t damage your movement pattern of the most important exercises for you to gain your strength and power.

Most athletes have no use for using shitty form in repeat bouts of “power exercises”

I agree, the cost to benefit ratio isn’t that great on it if you are involved in a particular sport… but for your average weekend warrior after you reach a suitable degree of strength its not something to NEVER EVER do like is often alluded to.

There’s probably something you can do other than that if you want to be specific to a sport.

But if you just want to get bigger, or get a little more “wind” while you’re in the weight room.

Why not?

Hell I’ve heard people say you shouldn’t do over 6 reps in the front squat because your rhomboids will tire out and form will break down. Then an oly coach tells me to get bigger legs front squat 4x15 (since i had been doing 1-3’s for a long time).

Form is for people that aren’t lifting heavy enough :-p

Again the pivotal point for me is that you can actually lift enough originally to get anything out of it. cleans with 90#'s isn’t going to cut it.

if you’re going to do reps, 185# minimum.

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
gi2eg wrote:
A lot of people seem to be avoiding this:

Power is best developed at the low rep ranges. I can use workouts like this to get my power from 7-10.

This, however, won’t get me all that much better at producing power over a longer period of time (conditioning to a specific fitness requirement). I can use workouts with higher repetition ranges to effectively lengthen the amount of time that I can consistently display the power that I built by using lower rep ranges.

Many sports that are still anaerobic/power based require repeated bouts of extended effort at a high power output.

Using Higher Rep ranges primarily develops strength-endurance. It is not the most efficient way to develop maximal strength. [/quote]

Seems like you didn’t read my post.

I said lower rep ranges for max power adaptations. I’d also say strength is the same.

I said that using higher repetitions would extend your ability to perform at a high power output.

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
gi2eg wrote:
A lot of people seem to be avoiding this:

Power is best developed at the low rep ranges. I can use workouts like this to get my power from 7-10.

This, however, won’t get me all that much better at producing power over a longer period of time (conditioning to a specific fitness requirement). I can use workouts with higher repetition ranges to effectively lengthen the amount of time that I can consistently display the power that I built by using lower rep ranges.

Many sports that are still anaerobic/power based require repeated bouts of extended effort at a high power output.

And those sports are better served by doing something they’re not going to hurt themselves doing. Front/Zercher squats seem to make more sense than deadlifts or cleans, a step even better could be the bike. Repeat sprints are a good choice if you’re not like a lineman or sumo wrestler in weight. Hell even play your sport if it makes sense. Just don’t damage your movement pattern of the most important exercises for you to gain your strength and power.

Most athletes have no use for using shitty form in repeat bouts of “power exercises”[/quote]

Front squats are not a power move, IMO. Better for absolute strength/structural adaptations.

Jumps, oly lifts, etc. are different.

All lifts take technique. Oly lifts take a higher degree of coordination. Will you get tired towards the end of your set? Yes. Is this where you’re perfecting your form/really developing your maximal power? No.

Sports, by no coincidence, also demand coordination/technique when you’re tired.

Yes, playing your sport will improve your endurance for it. It’ll also develop your strength. But this doesn’t mean we should give up on GPP all together, there is obviously something to it.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
I agree, the cost to benefit ratio isn’t that great on it if you are involved in a particular sport… but for your average weekend warrior after you reach a suitable degree of strength its not something to NEVER EVER do like is often alluded to.

There’s probably something you can do other than that if you want to be specific to a sport.

But if you just want to get bigger, or get a little more “wind” while you’re in the weight room.

Why not?

Hell I’ve heard people say you shouldn’t do over 6 reps in the front squat because your rhomboids will tire out and form will break down. Then an oly coach tells me to get bigger legs front squat 4x15 (since i had been doing 1-3’s for a long time).

Form is for people that aren’t lifting heavy enough :-p

Again the pivotal point for me is that you can actually lift enough originally to get anything out of it. cleans with 90#'s isn’t going to cut it.

if you’re going to do reps, 185# minimum.

[/quote]

Like everything else in weight training, I don’t think a blanket recommendation of a weight that you have to be able to do for reps should be suggested.

There is always going to be a heavier weight that you could use, but for less reps. W

hy not vary it, for the same reason that we vary sprint lengths for field athletes (such as soccer)? For an 800m run you’re not going to be near the same intensity as a 100m.

So we could suggest that for maximum running speed development while running, we should not run the 800m because you will be running too slowly. But I don’t think we should. in most sports, Its important to be able to express a high power output from multiple energy systems.

And there is such thing as failure with no breakdown in form. Instead of compensating with unsound anatomical adjustments, you can just bail on the lift/take a few more breaths before your next rep.

Next workout you should show a small improvement in how long you can maintain form with said weight.

Technique execution is related to weight used: you will use different technique at, say, under 75% 1RM (see Zatsiorsky).

This equates to around an 8RM, but form does tend to break down through a set.
Hence O lifters and Westside use a high number of low rep sets (8sets x 3reps).
The fact that Westside use ~50-60% is fairly recent(they began with~75%) and is a reflection , to some degree, of the carry overfrom the PL equipment (suits, wraps etc)

I’ve done high rep (8-12) power snatches from the hang, they will get you into shape better than anything else I’ve tried and are probably my favorite thing to incease shoulder/trap mass. Since I’m doing them more for muscular work than trying to improve my snatch or be an olympic lifter, I don’t get caught up in being a form nazi, but just try to make sure the form is “decent” or close enough

I don’t do them because they never did a lot for me strength wise. lower reps and a Westside protocol did more for strength and mass than trying to do 8-20 rep sets of deads and cleans.

Now I do seated dumbell cleans, but they’re more of a ballistic lat raise and not a true olympic lift.

[quote]gi2eg wrote:
Yes, playing your sport will improve your endurance for it. It’ll also develop your strength. But this doesn’t mean we should give up on GPP all together, there is obviously something to it.

[/quote]

GPP is a term pretty much used in powerlifting. In sport, everything you do that isn’t playing your sport is classified as GPP. It’s much easier to play your way into shape than to play your way into a 4.2 40.